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Old 10-01-2004   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dravyk@Sep 30 2004, 09:44 PM
I think the most important thing here is ...




... that Grimm's avatar looks like Christopher Walken to me.
oh man, you havent seen that saturday night live skit?

http://www.aspyre.net/narra/archives/006764.html


they have the script and a link to the download.


More Cowbell Baby!
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Old 10-01-2004   #52
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I think overall Bush won, since 95% of the questions were on issues where Kerry is weak. Kerry didn´t come out as a more strong candidate on most of the Iraq questions, however he did have his moments - ex. on securing all nuclear materials in Russia, there he was precise, firm and to the point - if Kerry would stop the Iraq blame argument, and do more precise/constructive/short arguments, then he could win alot of the undecided voters.

It was too easy for Bush, since Kerry didn´t have the arguments to make him sweat on the Iraq issues.

I think the next one will be more interesting, since each camp will be analyzing this debate, and learning from it.

Scale from 1-10, where 10 is greatest:

Bush 5
Kerry 3

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Old 10-01-2004   #53
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Here's what the aol folk have to say. (I'm sure there's pleanty of underagers, non registered voters....but it is a poll afterall).

Who won the debate?
John Kerry 54%
George Bush 46%


Did it change the candidate you support?
No 72%
Yes, I now support Kerry 18%
Yes, I now support Bush 10%


Total Votes: 505,124
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Old 10-01-2004   #54
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"great googly moogly"

hahahaha.
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Old 10-01-2004   #55
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i just caught a rerun of the debate.

and i say hands down, Kerry won.

Bushcould not answer for his own actions.
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Old 10-01-2004   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by grimm@Oct 1 2004, 05:57 AM
i just caught a rerun of the debate.

and i say hands down, Kerry won.

Bushcould not answer for his own actions.
Same here, Grimm. Just watched it. Kerry won.
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Old 10-01-2004   #57
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I think each candidate had several goals... Bush accomplished most of his goals (including not making a complete ass of himself ;-))), however Kerry missed several of his (ex. making his international politic clear).

What are your definition of winning a debate?
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Old 10-01-2004   #58
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You win a debate when the other side cannot clearly answer and support their side. On that basis, Kerry won in a landslide.

As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Bush ain't very good at these things, and it showed. As soon as the discussion went away from his pre-recorded messages, he stumbled, he paused, he stuttered, and he talked in circles.

His "wrong war wrong place wrong time" message only goes to re-enforce the feels of many people, that it was the wrong war! Kerry having the balls to admit it will more than likely help to get the world to come back on to the US's side. The lone cowboy routine gets really dull after a while, and you know everyone tries to get the gunslinger.

Kerry SOUNDLY beat Bush (CNN poll gave Bush a "C" rating overall, Kerry a "B+" - based on public votes). He has vaulted himself right back into the campaign. Now it will be interesting to see what he does with it. It will also be interesting to see if Bush still wants to do the other debates.

Alex
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Old 10-01-2004   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 1 2004, 08:26 AM
You win a debate when the other side cannot clearly answer and support their side. On that basis, Kerry won in a landslide.
oh my....
Winning a debate is when the voters chose you over your opponent.

Nobody won shit in that debate,
Republicans are not switching sides,
Democrats are not switching sides and so far it's a draw,
despite what Canadien voters think
;-))))
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Old 10-01-2004   #60
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Serge, if it was that simple, then there would be no election, just a membership drive. You forget that many (probably close to a majority) are not members of either party.

So there ya go.

Alex
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Old 10-01-2004   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rolo@Oct 1 2004, 07:36 AM
What are your definition of winning a debate?
Kerry is taller. He looked down at Bush when they shook hands like "Hey there, little guy". That's when Kerry won.
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Old 10-01-2004   #62
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I think this morning's Gallup results rather clearly show how people viewed the debates.

Kery won the debate, Kerry is much more articulate, they understand the issues the same, Bush is more believable, Bush is more likable and Bush demonstrated he is tougher for the job.

Kerry kicked Bush's ass in the debate. This seems to be largely based upon how articulate Kerry is as people were evenly divided over their opinion of their understanding of the issues. Bush won on the points that are giving him an advantage going into the election. He's believable, he's likable, he's tough enough for the job. I guess being from Texas beats being a war hero. That's good marketing.
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Old 10-01-2004   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 1 2004, 07:26 AM
You win a debate when the other side cannot clearly answer and support their side. On that basis, Kerry won in a landslide.

As I mentioned at the top of this thread, Bush ain't very good at these things, and it showed. As soon as the discussion went away from his pre-recorded messages, he stumbled, he paused, he stuttered, and he talked in circles.

His "wrong war wrong place wrong time" message only goes to re-enforce the feels of many people, that it was the wrong war! Kerry having the balls to admit it will more than likely help to get the world to come back on to the US's side. The lone cowboy routine gets really dull after a while, and you know everyone tries to get the gunslinger.

Kerry SOUNDLY beat Bush (CNN poll gave Bush a "C" rating overall, Kerry a "B+" - based on public votes). He has vaulted himself right back into the campaign. Now it will be interesting to see what he does with it. It will also be interesting to see if Bush still wants to do the other debates.

Alex
Kerry didn't exactly have a good answer to how he's going to talk the French into supporting "a great diversion" and "the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time." Nor did he have a good answer to his continually changing position on the threat Hussein posed and how to deal with it.

To say he SOUNDLY beat Bush is to demonstrate silly partisanship. I think he beat Bush, but I don't think it was masterful. Like I said, he missed some real opportunities to bury Bush. He could have worked that mumble-mouthed idiot like a 12 year old school girl in Beijing. Did you ever see the 2000 Republican Debates -- McCain, Bush, and Keyes? Alan Keyes made Bush look like a retarded monkey. It was so bad people were groaning. We were laughing at Bush. He got tooled.

Kerry had the chance to do the same thing. He could have bodyslammed Bush. He didn't. Like I said, if you want to see what a rhetorical beating is, go look at what Keyes did to Bush. No comparison.

Alex, my guess is that if a video surfaced of Kerry fucking a 6 year old boy in the ass while snorting coke off his back and then shooting him in the head when he was done, you'd try to justify it.
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Old 10-01-2004   #64
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Anyone who wants to see and read about Bush really getting his ass handed to him in debates should check this link out:

http://www.renewamerica.us/keyes/debates.htm

Here's an idea of what Keyes did to Bush (keep in mind that Bush had a huge Republican following who was going to vote for him no matter how badly he lost, kind of like Alex would do for Kerry no matter how poorly he performs):

2000 Republican presidential debate polls

(Polls conducted by Vote.com)

Who won the March 2, 2000, Republican debate?

George W. Bush (6,430 votes) 53%
Alan Keyes (4,210 votes) 34%
John McCain (1,586 votes) 13%


Who won the February 15, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (10,542 votes) 44%
George W. Bush (9,374 votes) 39%
John McCain (4,157 votes) 17%


Who won the January 26, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (5,715 votes) 47%
George W. Bush (3,711 votes) 30%
Steve Forbes (1,505 votes) 12%
John McCain (1,152 votes) 9%
Gary Bauer (157 votes) 1%


Who won the January 15, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (3,929 votes) 54%
George W. Bush (2,279 votes) 31%
John McCain (673 votes) 9%
Steve Forbes (222 votes) 3%
Gary Bauer (92 votes) 1%
Orrin Hatch (90 votes) 1%


Who won the January 10, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (6,462 votes) 50%
George W. Bush (4,393 votes) 34%
John McCain (1,320 votes) 10%
Steve Forbes (322 votes) 3%
Gary Bauer (187 votes) 1%
Orrin Hatch (187 votes) 1%


Who won the January 7, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (3,480 votes) 44%
George W. Bush (3,327 votes) 42%
John McCain (753 votes) 9%
Steve Forbes (214 votes) 3%
Gary Bauer (111 votes) 1%
Orrin Hatch (110 votes) 1%


Who won the January 6, 2000, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (5,599 votes) 46%
George W. Bush (4,528 votes) 37%
John McCain (1,276 votes) 10%
Steve Forbes (335 votes) 3%
Orrin Hatch (249 votes) 2%
Gary Bauer (181 votes) 1%


Who won the December 13, 1999, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (11,551 votes) 42%
George W. Bush (10,713 votes) 39%
John McCain (3,460 votes) 13%
Steve Forbes (954 votes) 3%
Orrin Hatch (619 votes) 2%
Gary Bauer (380 votes) 1%


Who won the December 6, 1999, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (14,201 votes) 57%
George W. Bush (5,296 votes) 21%
John McCain (3,282 votes) 13%
Steve Forbes (1,335 votes) 5%
Gary Bauer (387 votes) 2%
Orrin Hatch (383 votes) 2%


Who won the December 2, 1999, Republican debate?

Alan Keyes (19,158 votes) 45%
George W. Bush (12,136 votes) 29%
John McCain (7,412 votes) 17%
Steve Forbes (2,735 votes) 6%
Gary Bauer (608 votes) 1%
Orrin Hatch (477 votes) 1%

Trancripts of the debates: http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/debates.htm
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Old 10-01-2004   #65
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Of all the political threads/debates I have seen here on Oprano, I can say that I have never seen anyone as angry as Buff with his own country's government.

Buff, you would be a very happy Canadian.
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Old 10-01-2004   #66
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Oct 1 2004, 08:20 AM
Of all the political threads/debates I have seen here on Oprano, I can say that I have never seen anyone as angry as Buff with his own country's government.

Buff, you would be a very happy Canadian.
Chris, I just find it amusing that people are arguing about how great Kerry and Bush are, when the reality are that they're both incompetent and unfit to be President.

I mean, Bush cannot even speak. It's just sad. Kerry can be on 5 sides of a 2 sided issue and Bush doesn't have the competency to pummel him successful for it.

And Kerry was debating a guy whom most people here, judging by their posts, think is an idiot. If that's the best he can do against an idiot, how great can he be?

Doesn't this make sense?
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Old 10-01-2004   #67
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Originally posted by Buff+Oct 1 2004, 10:37 AM-->
QUOTE (Buff @ Oct 1 2004, 10:37 AM)
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Old 10-01-2004   #68
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Buff, makes perfect sense.... so why do you want to re-elect the idiot?

Oh yeah, I checked the polls this morning. Every one I saw had Kerry spanking Bush...

Alex
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Old 10-01-2004   #69
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 1 2004, 08:59 AM
Buff, makes perfect sense.... so why do you want to re-elect the idiot?

Oh yeah, I checked the polls this morning. Every one I saw had Kerry spanking Bush...

Alex
Why do I what??? Alex, open your mind. I can hate Kerry without supporting Bush. In fact, and pay attention here, I can hate BOTH Kerry and Bush. As a libertarian, guess what? I DO! I don't want Bush to win re-election, and I don't want Kerry to win election.
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Old 10-01-2004   #70
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QUOTE (Buff @ Oct 1 2004, 07:14 AM)
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Old 10-01-2004   #71
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Old 10-01-2004   #72
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QUOTE (Buff @ Oct 1 2004, 07:14 AM)
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Old 10-01-2004   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 1 2004, 08:40 AM
Serge, if it was that simple, then there would be no election, just a membership drive. You forget that many (probably close to a majority) are not members of either party.

So there ya go.

Alex
Alex,
is Canadien politics bores you to death?
I NEVER seen you discuss Canadien politics with fellow Canadiens....

Do you care about Canadien politics? What are your thoughts on Separatise Movement in Quebec?

If your knowlege of USA politics is better than local,
you can skip the subject.
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Old 10-01-2004   #74
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Serge, you are 28 years late on asking the seperation question. The masses have been polled and twice have said no.

Canadian politics is fairly simple and straight forward. But we aren't "the superpower", we aren't the world's self appointed police man, and whoever is in the whitehouse is going to make decisions that will directly affect me. So US politics is much more interesting.

Buff, ou get choice A, choice B, or STFU (or Nader in some places, which is the same thing). You have to choose. If you choose NEITHER NOR, then you have just increased the power of someone else's vote.

Alex
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Old 10-01-2004   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 1 2004, 03:28 PM
But we aren't "the superpower", we aren't the world's self appointed police man...
Alex, stop downplaying Canada - its obvious that Canada is a "closet superpower" - everyone know how Canada are using/flexing their "military muscles" in its quest for Canadian imperialism:

Quote:

"Exercise Narwhal" (1) -- the name for the exercises that all three branches of Canada's military have recently conducted in the north between August 12 and 31, 2004, the largest ever of such maneuvers -- was beaten back by storms, winds and other acts of the Arctic's many beautiful miracles...
...

Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin recently concluded a trip to the Arctic. (2) While he was on his four day tour through the Yukon, Northwest Territories (NWT) and Nunavut, he proclaimed "I've always loved the North." Well, since visiting the Arctic in 2003 I would have to agree with that much, but for rather different reasons. What caused this sudden pilgrimage to the "last frontier?" In the 19th Century, it was to mine gold. Now, it's drilling for natural gas (the largest deposits untapped on the planet), oil (again, huge untapped reserves) as well as the largest supply of non-African diamonds found on the earth. All of these reasons would be plenty, but there is far more than that alone at stake. The "benefits" of global warming that Herb Dhaliwal (former PM Jean Chretien's Minister of Natural Resources) once explicitly welcomed are nearly here: the ice packs are melting and technology is improving -- both at a breakneck speed. This is opening up a Northwest Passage route -- the very one that many early white settlers perished trying in vain to find or carve over two centuries ago and multiple times since. When this happens in full, it will be the single greatest revolution in global shipping routes since the Panama Canal was dug by the men who died in the thousands in what is now a permanent American base (legally returned to Panama in 1999). There's a hitch, however. In fact, there are four hitches, and all of them are border disputes.

There are two with the United States (Alaska), one with Russia, and the most divisive is actually with Denmark (Greenland). The United States has already declared that the Northern route would be international waters and not subject to the sovereignty of any state. What Canada is doing with the military is good ol' fashioned gunboat diplomacy, albeit symbolic, and it is being carried out on several targets.

Islands in the north have fuzzy determinations of who owns what; many have never been recorded as the "official" territory of any state. Since international law states a country maintains sovereignty of waters three miles from land, determining where in the Arctic Ocean borders must be drawn -- and therefore who will run and maintain this radically shorter transport route for eastern Asia to Europe, Atlantic Turtle Island to Asia, and Pacific Turtle Island to Europe -- becomes a geopolitical question of gigantic significance. The British imperialists have noted for centuries: whoever controls the seas controls the global economy. Hans Island, in between Greenland/Denmark and Ellesmere Island/Canada, is just such an example. The Danish navy months ago dispatched a Dane flag to the rock using a naval warship to do so, and Canada plans to do much the same. Though a true military "solution" is next to impossible, tempers have flared and relations have been strained, with Canada issuing a diplomatic protest. (3)

Before the passage opens up, Canadian imperialism needs to assert sovereignty over these islands. However, the sovereignty battle isn't merely with these other imperial states, but mainly with the nations who have lived there for thousands upon thousands of years. They face extinction, cultural and physical, with the Canadian state and their continued efforts to build a pipeline through the entire 1700 kilometer long Mackenzie Valley....
http://www.swans.com/library/art10/mstain01.html

I think its about time Canadian imperialism gets a closer look - or should we wait for the Canadian Army to attack NATO allies?

;-)
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Old 10-02-2004   #76
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Old 10-02-2004   #77
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Rolo, nice piece, except for the credit:

"Macdonald Stainsby is a 29-year-old student, freelance writer, and social justice activist living in Montreal, Quebec, and studying at Concordia University. "

29 year old student activist? Is that the best you could come up with? I have seen what student activists do... they go to summits and start riots.

Alex
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Old 10-02-2004   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 2 2004, 12:39 PM
I have seen what student activists do... they go to summits and start riots.
Please, do not blame me for the products produced by the offsprings of the canadian educational system ;-))

But truth is that canadians are now using possible "terror" as the excuse for making moves in the Arctic - yes, we should all fear the "Arctic terrorism" (sounds familiar??)

Quote:

YELLOWKNIFE - Terrorism is usually "the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about," said Ron Huebert from the Centre for Military and Strategic studies, during a panel on security at the Northern Research Forum meeting in Yellowknife.

The discussion was intended to focus on broader security issues, but speakers ended up talking more about the threat of terrorism and what this means to the circumpolar world.

Arctic terrorism is possible, Huebert said, because the region is a potential entry point for terrorists, and remains strategically important.

Yet terrorism is just one of the possible threats that circumpolar regions and residents face to their security.

These also include climate change, pollution and resource development, which all have the potential to affect the security of states, the environment and people in the Arctic.

"The challenge for those who call the North home and for policy-makers is determining which are the main threats to northern security. The question that remains is how this can be done," Huebert said.

For climate change, some suggested setting up a kind of community-based "early warning" network across the circumpolar perimeter.

Using the military to respond to traditional security threats is still an option, Huebert said.

But he suggested diplomacy will likely be the response to what he called several "dangerous" threats to Canadian security and sovereignty.

These include ongoing disputes over who owns Hans Island, a tiny island located between Ellesmere Island and Greenland, or the Arctic continental shelf marine region near the Beaufort Sea.
http://www.nunatsiaq.com/news/nunavut/40924_06.html

Canada is on a confrontation path with its neighbours... trying to use force, so Canada can get its hands on the "oil" and trade in the Arctic.... yup, its all about money - I wonder how many canadian politicians have money invested in this. Atleast they are not trying to make it look like they are freeing the eskimos from the evil danish vikings... well, atleast not yet!

Canadian imperialists
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Old 10-02-2004   #79
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The difference between Canada and the US:

"Using the military to respond to traditional security threats is still an option, Huebert said.

But he suggested diplomacy will likely be the response to what he called several "dangerous" threats to Canadian security and sovereignty."

Yup... diplomacy. Not MOABs.

Anyway, nice distraction techniques by the republican side... so Kerry won the dabate hands down. What is it like to support a confused and befuddled President?

Alex
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Old 10-02-2004   #80
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 2 2004, 01:54 PM
Yup... diplomacy. Not MOABs.
The US did 12 YEARS of diplomacy, before the 2nd gulf war... I wonder if Canada will have the same patience... will Canada sit by for 12 years, if evil vikings were to have eskimos on Hans Island - making them live in igloos, so they each day can watch over the danish flags planted all over the island - or will Canada send in its military to remove the vikings and eskimos by using force... vikings and eskimos who happende to be members of NATO.

Today the warmongers in Ottawa are building up the military in the Arctic because of "Arctic terrorism" - do they really think that more military will solve the situation? No, the Arctic will just be an area where the opponents of a Canadian presence can recruit supporters.

The top performing stocks in Canada are in the mining and oil industries - industries who will make alot of money, if Canada is to control the Arctic...

These are valid questions and should concern every Canadian who can vote!
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Old 10-02-2004   #81
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Rolo, the question always is:

In Iraq, what SUDDENLY CHANGED to make military action an absolute requirement? How did you end up with ONLY the military option left?

Rolo, your "warmongers in the arctic" is fucking hilarious. You really need to stop smoking or snorting whatever that stuff is, because it is making you goofy! Our military will protect our borders, but we are not warmongers.

Get a grip, answer the questions instead.

Alex
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Old 10-02-2004   #82
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Either the Hans Island issue is a "Wag the Dog" public attention stunt (look how strong our goverment is), or Canadian politicians are really meaning what they are saying - ex. Stockwell Day from the opposition saying:

Quote:

The nation of Denmark has laid claim to Canadian territory. Its military, from its warship, hoisted its flag on our Arctic territory without permission, without warning, and without any fear of being stopped.
Now ofcourse the issue about Hans Island is amusing to me, since its a perfect example on how the same issue can be looked at from different point of views, and it just adds to the story that in this issue its Canada who is the "big", "aggressive" part... who would have tought that Canada would be driven by things like greed and power in international issues - I´m guessing everyone else, but a few canadians ;-))

So as Jesus said "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone" ;-)))

To answer your Iraq question, then I hope there were more than 1 reason why military action was required - you do not go to war over 1.3 mile of rock in the arctic without having more than the rock to fight for. Also like every other war in history, then objectives are changed depending on how the war is going... what might have been good reasons for invading 1½ years ago, have probably been modified/replaced by other good reasons for staying today.
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Old 10-03-2004   #83
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Rolo, I've never seen you funny. This is the most amusing argument I've seen in a few months ;-)

Alex, I know your opinion on Kerry. I'm interested in what ways you think Bush outperformed Kerry in the debate.

The issue for Democrats is that once again they don't intend to vote proportionally. There are more Democrats in the US than Republicans but Republicans are more likely to vote in this election.
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Old 10-03-2004   #84
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Originally posted by Colin@Oct 3 2004, 05:33 AM
Rolo, I've never seen you funny.
Prehaps difference of perception? However the truth is that my punchlines are always too weak, too late, and misunderstood - I´m not a funny board guy
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Old 10-03-2004   #85
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« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Originally posted by Rolo+Oct 3 2004, 09:52 AM-->
QUOTE (Rolo @ Oct 3 2004, 09:52 AM)
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Old 10-03-2004   #86
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Colin, I think Bush's strongest point was re-using the single phrase "wrong war, wrong time"etc over and over during the debate. He was strong at redirecting questions to the subjects or themes he wanted to talk about. His prepared answers on subjects, when they hit exactly on what he had prepared were clear, using short words that the average voter could understand.

Do you remember the "who is going to win the debate" thread? I posted (before the debate):

Quote:
Mike, actually, Bush's weakest spot is "non scripted" situations. Bush is a VERY poor orator without a script (rumor had it that his early scripts when running for govenor in texas included prompts when to smile). If Kerry can lead him even a little off of his scripted answers, I think you will see Bush go down hard.
Kerry did as I expected, and Bush reacted EXACTLY as expected. Bush will be remembered in this debate as the stuttering, confused, and often SILENT adversary... a man that truly did not look to be in charge of the facts.

Alex
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Old 10-03-2004   #87
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Oct 3 2004, 10:36 AM
Colin, I think Bush's strongest point was re-using the single phrase "wrong war, wrong time"etc over and over during the debate. He was strong at redirecting questions to the subjects or themes he wanted to talk about. His prepared answers on subjects, when they hit exactly on what he had prepared were clear, using short words that the average voter could understand.

Do you remember the "who is going to win the debate" thread? I posted (before the debate):

Quote:
Mike, actually, Bush's weakest spot is "non scripted" situations. Bush is a VERY poor orator without a script (rumor had it that his early scripts when running for govenor in texas included prompts when to smile). If Kerry can lead him even a little off of his scripted answers, I think you will see Bush go down hard.
Kerry did as I expected, and Bush reacted EXACTLY as expected. Bush will be remembered in this debate as the stuttering, confused, and often SILENT adversary... a man that truly did not look to be in charge of the facts.

Alex
I thought Bush overused that phrase. I thought he only had one strong moment in the whole debate and that was when he quoted Kerry and showed that he flip flopped on Iraq. Bush really didn't look like he wanted to be there. I guess he has something better to do than try to convince the American people that he knows what he's doing -- too bad for him, because only 39% of people think he has a clear strategy on Iraq as opposed to 52% for Kerry. That was Bush's strong issue.

He better get his shit together if he wants to win -- this election, like Colin says, is up for grabs.
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