the possibility of a lot more cocaine in the future.

[Biggy]

Apparently, Bolivia's leading presidential advocate has been a coca grower for years and is a very strong supporter of legalizing the coca plant, which is the main ingredient used to manufacture cocaine. Pretty interesting, and scary at the same time. From: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/26/in...olivia.html?hp

"HIPIRIRI, Bolivia - In nearly 50 years of growing coca, José Torrico has seen army soldiers swarm across his fields to pull up his plants and heard threats from successive Bolivian governments determined to destroy his crop.
Skip to next paragraph
Noah Friedman-Rudovsky for The New York Times

Evo Morales donned wreaths of coca leaves at a campaign rally earlier this month in the Chapare region of Bolivia.

And like thousands of other coca farmers in this verdant, tropical region of central Bolivia, Mr. Torrico has refused to stop growing coca, the main ingredient in cocaine, even in the face of a relentless United States-financed effort to stamp it out.

Now, after years of persistence, he and his fellow farmers say they are eagerly anticipating the advent of a new era, one in which growing coca will finally be made legal. That is, they say, if Evo Morales is elected president on Dec. 18.

"It will be legalized," Mr. Torrico, 69, said with a broad smile as he showed off an orange nylon tarp loaded with freshly picked coca leaves. "This is good for us. Evo can do us favors."

Mr. Morales, a onetime leader of the coca growers federation, has steadily become revered by the left around Latin America as an unbending opponent of globalization. That is worrisome enough to the Bush administration. But more alarming to American officials is that a man who promotes coca farming - an industry central to cocaine production - may soon lead this Andean nation.

Rising in part on his pledge to legalize coca, Mr. Morales has become the top presidential candidate in Bolivia, and he now leads his closest adversary, Jorge Quiroga, an American-educated former president, by 33 to 27 percent, according to a poll conducted earlier this month.

Mr. Morales's ascent now, at a time when President Bush holds the lowest standing of any United States leader ever in Latin America, has intensified a clash of cultures with Washington that shows some of its deepest strains here.

For 20 years, Washington has sponsored efforts to eliminate coca as part of its fight against the illegal drug trade, and Bolivian governments have cooperated, eager for loans and other support from international lenders.

But today Washington-backed economic prescriptions are being rejected up and down the continent. And though the presidential race is tight, political analysts say that Mr. Morales may have the upper hand because of the potent anti-establishment fervor that has swept Bolivia, forcing out two presidents since 2003.

The growing appeal of Mr. Morales, who like most Bolivians is of Indian descent, runs deepest here in the Chapare, a New Jersey-size swath of rivers and thick jungle where coca cultivation has for years made Bolivia one of the world's top cocaine producers.

For thousands of years before that, however, Indian highlanders cultivated and chewed unprocessed coca to mitigate hunger and increase stamina. Though the Bolivian government has made growing coca largely illegal, the bright green leaves are taken for granted as part of Andean culture.

They are still bought and sold legally across Bolivia for chewing or making tea, with people young and old never giving it a second thought. Indeed, coca tea is sold in supermarkets and it is consumed across the Andes, even in elegant hotels and offices.

While acknowledging that cocaine trafficking is a problem, Mr. Morales and the coca growers contend that most coca in the Chapare goes for traditional uses. Mr. Morales says that as president he would allow the "industrial" use of coca, to make everything from toothpaste to pharmaceuticals to soft drinks to be exported as far away as China and Europe.

"Coca and coca tea can be industrialized to circulate internationally," Mr. Morales said during an interview en route to a meeting with coca farmers. "How can we not legalize, since we are not hurting anybody?"

Erecting road blockades and battling soldiers, the coca growers have already won victories against the Bolivian government once thought impossible, most recently with a pact last fall that allowed each farmer to plant up to a third of an acre with coca in the Chapare.

Today the blue, black and white flags of Mr. Morales's party, the Movement Toward Socialism, flutter from houses in the Chapare, and Mr. Morales is treated like a conquering hero during his frequent visits.

"Evo came up from the bottom, first as a union leader, then as the leader of the coca growers federation," René Arandia, a coca growers leader, said as he took a break from a recent meeting between Mr. Morales and several hundred cocaleros, as the growers are called, in the town of Lauca Ñ. "And now he's on his way to becoming president of the republic. For us, this is a victory."

For Washington, however, it is little short of a nightmare. American officials and leading drug policy experts contend that, no matter what Mr. Morales and the coca growers say, most of the coca grown in the Chapare winds up as cocaine.

They also say that the recent pact permitting limited coca production in the Chapare has emboldened not only coca farmers, but cocaine traffickers.

"The results are pretty clear," said Eduardo Gamarra, the Bolivian-born director of Latin American studies at Florida International University, who has closely tracked the drug trade. "Coca production has expanded considerably in Bolivia, and cocaine production has expanded considerably in Bolivia."

The United Nations said in a recent report that Bolivia produced up to 107 tons of cocaine last year, up 35 percent from 2003. The sudden increase has prompted warnings that cocaine traffickers are gaining ground after several years in which Bolivia's drug crops were substantially reduced.

"I don't think there's an attractive or viable future by becoming a narco-state," John Walters, the White House drug czar, said in an interview.

American officials, though, have watched helplessly as Mr. Morales's influence has grown. When they have offered opinions - like claims, with little proof, that Mr. Morales is linked to drug trafficking - it has only strengthened Mr. Morales's appeal.

"They accuse me of everything," Mr. Morales told a crowd on a recent campaign swing. "They say Evo is a drug trafficker, that Evo is a narco-terrorist. They don't know how to defend their position, so they attack us."

As president of the so-called Six Federations, a confederation of coca growers, he molded it into a powerful political force that propelled him to Congress.

Mr. Morales is well aware of the debt he owes his base. "If not for the Chapare, if not for the Six Federations," he says, "there would not be an Evo Morales."

Though 20,848 acres of coca was uprooted in eradication efforts in 2004, farmers keep planting it. They say they have no choice but to grow coca, since other crops fare poorly here and American-financed efforts to encourage them to switch to legal crops have stumbled.

Mr. Torrico's 20 acres are filled with crops like bananas, fruit, yucca, coffee and cacao. On a tour of his plot, though, he listed off the hurdles he faces making ends meet, from high transportation costs to bottom-basement prices for most of his crops.

Coca, on the other hand, earns him as much as $162 dollars a month. It is not a windfall, even by Bolivian standards, but it is a living, he said.

"With coca, I was able to send my children to study," said Mr. Torrico, who has eight children. "The other stuff, the citrus fruit, the bananas, give us nothing. Coca is what sustains us here."

[RyanLanane]

While acknowledging that cocaine trafficking is a problem, Mr. Morales and the coca growers contend that most coca in the Chapare goes for traditional uses.

Mmmmm Kay

Hope this twisted bastard doesn't get elected.. That shit is bad, making it legal to grow because it has other purposes is stupid as all hell. His point is asinine, the reason he wants it legal for himself and his citizens is because it pays more money than other crops they can grow. The ONLY reason it pays more per acre is because it is used to produce cocaine. If the only thing Cocoa leaves were sold for was industrial use in 'toothpaste' the amount they earn per acre would be in line or less than any other crops they can grow.

Have them grow hemp and use it to weave quilts and I don't give a damn if they sell the buds.. But cocoa plants should never be legal to grow in any country and I hope we would enforce a heavy trade embargo on them if they ever did legalize it.

Sorry, just hit a sore spot with me... Cocaine is the second most destructive drug in my book... heroin is the onyl drug I can think of that beats it out.

[Sin]

I'd put it about 3rd... Heroine, Meth, and then Cocaine..

Interesting article.

[TheEnforcer]

Why is it your duty to try and keep other people sober? Why should YOU have the choice of what they do to themselves? The minute they cross the line and abrige other people's freedom it's different but why should you be able to restrict thier activities if it doesn't cross that line? What exactly does someone doing coke, pot, or any other drug do to YOU? What makes them different than alcohol?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Why is it your duty to try and keep other people sober? Why should YOU have the choice of what they do to themselves? The minute they cross the line and abrige other people's freedom it's different but why should you be able to restrict thier activities if it doesn't cross that line? What exactly does someone doing coke, pot, or any other drug do to YOU? What makes them different than alcohol?

Don't knee jerk too quickly, TE. You'll miss the best part.

What's different, and where it impacts on my life, your life, and everyone's life, is that drugs are illegal. (keep reading, TE!) Now, what that in effect has done is create a culture of gangs, crime and assorted violences that catch innocent people in its grip and costs us a fortune in taxes to "fight." ("Fight" is in quotations because the oft quoted phrase "War on Drugs" is a silly waste of time, money and so often and tragically, lives.)

Now, to fully answer your question, I don't give a shit what some idiot wants to do with their own life. (I do care deeply about the preschool "crack babies" I saw while with the PTA, but that's another matter entirely.) What I do care about is our governement's passionate tendency to legislate morality, thereby creating an unsolvable problem.

If the governement really wanted to "take a bite out of crime," they'd legalize the drugs, regulate them, tax them, make a fortune and cut the legs out from under crime syndicates. Gangbangers would have nothing to do but listen to bad music and wear worse clothes.

Anyone whose ever lost a family member to a drunk driver will tell you there's not a damned bit of difference between alcohol abuse and drug abuse. Anyone who has ever watched a family member deteriote in health and all other aspects of life due to alcohol abuse will tell you there's no difference. Anyone who's ever seen an old Jimmy Cagney movie about prohibition will tell (I snagged on the word prohibition and my husband muttered "the Volstead Act, 1920, or the 18th Ammendment to the Constitution" for those of you trivia freaks in the audience) you that there's no difference.

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it...and repeat it...and repeat it....

I also think prostitution should be legalized. If there was ever a straight up, honest transaction "have sex with me and I'll give you money" would be it. The worst crimes in prostitution tend to be committed by pimps, which legal prostitutes would no longer require.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Don't knee jerk too quickly, TE. You'll miss the best part.

What's different, and where it impacts on my life, your life, and everyone's life, is that drugs are illegal. (keep reading, TE!) Now, what that in effect has done is create a culture of gangs, crime and assorted violences that catch innocent people in its grip and costs us a fortune in taxes to "fight." ("Fight" is in quotations because the oft quoted phrase "War on Drugs" is a silly waste of time, money and so often and tragically, lives.)

Now, to fully answer your question, I don't give a shit what some idiot wants to do with their own life. (I do care deeply about the preschool "crack babies" I saw while with the PTA, but that's another matter entirely.) What I do care about is our governement's passionate tendency to legislate morality, thereby creating an unsolvable problem.

If the governement really wanted to "take a bite out of crime," they'd legalize the drugs, regulate them, tax them, make a fortune and cut the legs out from under crime syndicates. Gangbangers would have nothing to do but listen to bad music and wear worse clothes.

Anyone whose ever lost a family member to a drunk driver will tell you there's not a damned bit of difference between alcohol abuse and drug abuse. Anyone who has ever watched a family member deteriote in health and all other aspects of life due to alcohol abuse will tell you there's no difference. Anyone who's ever seen an old Jimmy Cagney movie about prohibition will tell (I snagged on the word prohibition and my husband muttered "the Volstead Act, 1920, or the 18th Ammendment to the Constitution" for those of you trivia freaks in the audience) you that there's no difference.

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it...and repeat it...and repeat it....

I also think prostitution should be legalized. If there was ever a straight up, honest transaction "have sex with me and I'll give you money" would be it. The worst crimes in prostitution tend to be committed by pimps, which legal prostitutes would no longer require.

ahhhhh.. a woman after my own heart!!

Yes, the libertarian point of view is wonderful because it allows you the freedom to choose your own actions/morality AND holds you responsible for them if they cross the line and violate someone else's.

[PornoDoggy]

Uhhh ... boys and girls. Did anyone read the article?

Interestingly enough, that article isn't about the American appetite for legal and/or illegal drugs.

Mr. Torrico (remember Mr. Torrico? - he's the BOLIVIAN farmer the article used as human interest) can't make enough money growing alternatives to coca.

Why should Mr. Torrico give a rat's ass about America's cocaine problem?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

ahhhhh.. a woman after my own heart!!

Yes, the libertarian point of view is wonderful because it allows you the freedom to choose your own actions/morality AND holds you responsible for them if they cross the line and violate someone else's.

Thanks, TE! *Finally!* A man realizes there are *other* body parts this woman could be after!
However, let's not be toooo hasty, those traditional body parts are darn appealing on you!

I am responsible for my own behavior. Always. I'm responsible for my choices; my failure to choose; my mistakes; the list goes on.
I expect other people to be responsible for theirs.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to run around telling other people what to do or what not to do. When my own children turned 18, I gave up the pink slip on their persons. The tattoos that were absolutely verboten before 18 became "you're an adult now, make your own choices and make them wisely." (One example.) If I'm not attempting to run *their* lives, something tradition and knowledge of the parent/child relationship has shown me I can royally screw up should I have chosen to do so, I'm not about to attempt running the lives of complete strangers.

Here in Southern California the local news brings us frequent horrific stories of the casualities of the "War on Drugs." Kids in their own living rooms shot through the window in drive-by shootings. DEA agents murdered. Tijuana loses police officers, newspaper reporters, etc., on a pretty regular basis. All because of the US government's love of entering wars that can not be won.

The money spent on that could be put to use in so many places.

Some of it could even be used for decent programs for those drug addicts who've come to the realization that they've made some bad life choices and would like to correct their errors.

[RyanLanane]

I expected more jumping on my ass!

Why is it your duty to try and keep other people sober? Why should YOU have the choice of what they do to themselves? The minute they cross the line and abrige other people's freedom it's different but why should you be able to restrict thier activities if it doesn't cross that line? What exactly does someone doing coke, pot, or any other drug do to YOU? What makes them different than alcohol?

It isn't my "duty" to keep people off of drugs. It IS my duty to tell people what it 'can' do to their lives if they let the shit take it over. It is no different then a citizen saying speeding is bad and they don't think the speed limits should be raised. That person wouldn't be saying "You can't speed!" They would simply be stating they disagree with it, and I sure as shit do disagree with him legalizing it especially under false pretenses. If it is being grown with the major intent being 'industrial' hey I got no problem with it - but it isn't and he is hiding under false pretenses. Now, ask yourself this question...

WHY in the hell, regardless of OUR views, would he feel he had to lie about the reason he wants to legalize it, the real reason...

PD, You're right... HE shouldn't. Our president sure as shit should though!

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Uhhh ... boys and girls. Did anyone read the article?

Interestingly enough, that article isn't about the American appetite for legal and/or illegal drugs.

Mr. Torrico (remember Mr. Torrico? - he's the BOLIVIAN farmer the article used as human interest) can't make enough money growing alternatives to coca.

Why should Mr. Torrico give a rat's ass about America's cocaine problem?

PD...I responded to TE's comment, not the article.

The only thing about America's cocaine problem that Mr. Torrico cares about is the amount of money he's going to make from his crop, just like any sensible farmer.

The horrific amount of lives lost due to Bolivia's making it illegal is Bolivia's problem.

It's very easy to sit way over here in my comfortable living room and tell poor farmers they shouldn't do that "because it's bad." It's impossible to do it with a straight face, however. The farmer couldn't care less if some LA idiot in a designer house is sucking cocaine crumbs out of his carpet. All he cares about is caring for his family.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

I expected more jumping on my ass!
It isn't my "duty" to keep people off of drugs. It IS my duty to tell people what it 'can' do to their lives if they let the shit take it over.

Hang on while I pull my thoughts away from your ass....

OK. I'm fine now.

If I may ask gently...why is it YOUR duty to do that? I agree, there should be a complete and accurate amount of information given to people about the choices they make in their lives, as is done with alcohol and tabacco, but it isn't my responsibility to tell people these things. I leave that to the medical and scientific community.

It also doesn't take a scientist or a doctor at hand for a junkie to look around at his/her life and realize something has gone horribly wrong. Phrases like "you're fired" or "I want a divorce" tend to clue people in if they're paying attention.

[PornoDoggy]

Ryan, I think I can relate to where you are coming from. I've had two sinus surgeries so far as a lasting reminder of the glorious 80s.

If you have, or "have had" a problem with coke, your responsibility is to keep off coke.

If someone asks you about your experience with coke, you have an obligation to tell them what it did to you.

If you try and tell people who haven't asked, you will be as effective as the people who tried to talk to you - and you will sound like the adults always do in the Charlie Brown cartoons (rahhh rah rah rah rah rahhhhh).

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Ryan, I think I can relate to where you are coming from. I've had two sinus surgeries so far as a lasting reminder of the glorious 80s.

If you have, or "have had" a problem with coke, your responsibility is to keep off coke.

If someone asks you about your experience with coke, you have an obligation to tell them what it did to you.

If you try and tell people who haven't asked, you will be as effective as the people who tried to talk to you - and you will sound like the adults always do in the Charlie Brown cartoons (rahhh rah rah rah rah rahhhhh).

Ah...once again I point out to me to take care not to form opinions with insufficient data. New data has entered the discussion.

Ryan...under PD's new information, yes, I can see one chosing the personal responsibility to share one's own story in the hopes of preventing someone else from making the same mistakes.

Ryan, PD...you both have my admiration.

[TheEnforcer]

What PD and Ryan referred to I can certainly understand and admire.

[RyanLanane]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

It also doesn't take a scientist or a doctor at hand for a junkie to look around at his/her life and realize something has gone horribly wrong. Phrases like "you're fired" or "I want a divorce" tend to clue people in if they're paying attention.

Morgan, Junkies aren't paying attention... ever... you could hold out a sign that says "You are committing suicide" and it would be shrugged off.. Your closest friends can tell you they are concerned about you more so then they ever have before; it will be shrugged off. Being fired or getting a divorce or non events to a junkie unfortunately, very sad... but very rue..

and you will sound like the adults always do in the Charlie Brown cartoons (rahhh rah rah rah rah rahhhhh).

Very true, I tend to do that alot also.. I'm hoping when it is time to have that talk with my daughter I have the sensibility to do it the right way so it sinks in and doesn't sound like (rahh rah rahhh rah rahhh rahh). I do end up feeling like I'm preaching and it sounds like B.S. but if I could stop at least one person from making some of the mistakes I did, I would be a happy man.

[sarettah]

Lots of blah blah blah blah.

If Bolivia wants to legalize the production of coca, cool. I have no problem with it.

The problem is not coca, it is cocaine. You can have coca production legal and still have cocaine production be illegal.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Lots of blah blah blah blah.

If Bolivia wants to legalize the production of coca, cool. I have no problem with it.

The problem is not coca, it is cocaine. You can have coca production legal and still have cocaine production be illegal.

Here here

[sarettah]

Interesting tidbits to be found:

http://cocaine.org/index.html

Coca-cola was introduced in 1886 as "a valuable brain-tonic and cure for all nervous afflictions". Coca-cola was promoted as a temperance drink "offering the virtues of coca without the vices of alcohol". The new beverage was invigorating and popular. Until 1903, a typical serving contained around 60mg of cocaine. Sold today, it still contains an extract of coca-leaves. The Coca-Cola Company imports eight tons from South America each year. Nowadays the leaves are used only for flavouring since the drug has been removed.

So, if Coke (as in Coca Cola) is till importing coca leaves, then some places must still be growing it legally. Why should Bolivia be cut out from being able to profit from a crop that grows naturally within it's borders?

[OldJeff]

Bolivia should do whatever the hell they want, not the US's problem, but then again I feel the same way about AIDS in Africa, whoever is killing whoever in whatever shitville country around the world, and wherever people are starving because they live in the fucking desert where there is no food.

America should worry about what directly effects America.

As for cocaine, and every other drug, I agree with legalize, tax the hell out of it, and cut my income taxes.

And yes I know first hand all about how evil coke can be, spent a decade snorting far more than my share of 8balls, and on Feb 22 I will be observing the 10 year aniversary of my kid sister's death from cocaine over dose.

Of course like every other political issue, the US will neither legalize nor will they do anything to really stop the flow of drugs into the country.

It is as good a political marketing tool as WMD's, 911, terrorists, Social Security, health care for everyone.

Politicians do not actually solve problems, they simply look for the best ways to exploit them to increase their own personal goals, wealth, and power.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Morgan, Junkies aren't paying attention... ever... you could hold out a sign that says "You are committing suicide" and it would be shrugged off.. Your closest friends can tell you they are concerned about you more so then they ever have before; it will be shrugged off. Being fired or getting a divorce or non events to a junkie unfortunately, very sad... but very rue..



Very true, I tend to do that alot also.. I'm hoping when it is time to have that talk with my daughter I have the sensibility to do it the right way so it sinks in and doesn't sound like (rahh rah rahhh rah rahhh rahh). I do end up feeling like I'm preaching and it sounds like B.S. but if I could stop at least one person from making some of the mistakes I did, I would be a happy man.

Ryan...what matters to me are *your* needs. You need to talk. They can choose whether or not to listen. Your soul is clean either way. You tried sharing what you learned the hard way. Someday, that one person will arrive and listen when you talk and it will all have been worth your effort.

When it's time to have that talk with your daughter you'll have laid down a lifetime of groundwork that will make her listen to you, as you will have earned your credibility. She may try a few things that will make your blood run cold, but if she knows she can talk to you about anything, she always will.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Politicians do not actually solve problems, they simply look for the best ways to exploit them to increase their own personal goals, wealth, and power.

[Sin]

Wow this thread got a lot more interesting!! Morgan, I'm loving the visuals!