Should designer own copyright?

[Hell Puppy]

So I'm out looking at designers for some potential web design work, cartoons, logos and what not.

If you post a sample agreement, terms and conditions and what not, I will actually read it. So I look at first designer whose sig I happened across that I've actually heard of, and everything looks "ok" including pricing. But then I read T&C.

I see that they insist upon having a credit (graphic or text) and a link back to their site on EVERY PAGE for the duration of the time the site is displayed on the internet.

Hmmm....so I pay for the work, it's my site, and you want a link for work I paid you for?

My reaction to that is "bite me".....has this somehow become acceptable while I wasn't looking or is this a designer with a head up their ass?

Suffice to say, they wont be getting the job or even a second look from me because of that one line in T&C.

[DannyCox]

When I hire someone to do design work for me, they are working for me and I therefore own the work produced. I would never agree to linking back to someone I paid.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

When I hire someone to do design work for me, they are working for me and I therefore own the work produced. I would never agree to linking back to someone I paid.

that's the way i've always worked to.

and ya know, if i hire someone to change oil in my car, i dont let 'em put a bumper sticker on it that says "oil change by jiffy lube". and if a contractor does some work on the house, or even BUILDS the house, i dont let 'em stab a sign in yard that says "house by bubba's construction co".

I dont get it.

now if you wanna give me a design for free, i might give you a link. hell, even then i dont know if i'd agree to it being on EVERY PAGE.

[Toby]

That's only standard on non-custom pre-made designs.

If you pay for a one off exclusive then it's yours, you own it lock stock and join page, and are free to do with as you wish.

[seochick]

Hi guys, im also a web designer.. before i putting the copyright of my works, i used to ask permission to the client. But i think in your case, you have the right to say not to put their copyright on your site, you owned everypage on your site that you paid.

[Forest]

if you pay for it you own it

[pornlaw]

Originally Posted by Forest

if you pay for it you own it

When I hire someone to do design work for me, they are working for me and I therefore own the work produced.

Not true. You need a Work for Hire and an Assignment of Rights to truly own it. In the US, copyright is a akin to a property right than can only change ownership through a written agreement.

Without them, as the person paying for it, you only have a license to use their work.

There is an exception - unless the person performing the work is a salaried employee with taxes and all the other benefits that come with it. You cannot 1099 someone and then claim they are an employee. If they are an employee you own everything they do in the course of their employment.

[Hell Puppy]

At WORST, a custom site is going to be a joint copyright. My text, my specs, my color selections, my content used to build it, there's no way a designer can claim to own the copyright. If the hiring agreement isn't clear, they MIGHT be able to pull off claiming joint ownership.

In every case where I've hired a contractor to do anything, whether it's code, design or even shooting photos, it's a "work made for hire" agreement. It is my understanding that in that case, I own it all, no different than if they were a full time employee.

[bluemoney]

Originally Posted by Forest

if you pay for it you own it

I agree

[softball]

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Not true. You need a Work for Hire and an Assignment of Rights to truly own it. In the US, copyright is a akin to a property right than can only change ownership through a written agreement.

Without them, as the person paying for it, you only have a license to use their work.

There is an exception - unless the person performing the work is a salaried employee with taxes and all the other benefits that come with it. You cannot 1099 someone and then claim they are an employee. If they are an employee you own everything they do in the course of their employment.

I have been around this block with all the major us tv networks. Their "opinion" is they hired me, put me into the situation to take the images, rented my equipment, they now own it. It falls under the industry standard argument. My work has been used over and over again in various documentaries, news magazine programmes and news shows and historical works.
I suppose that ultimately myself and a legion of other photo journalists could be owed rather large sums....
Here is the case we most commonly discussed...
http://www.ncac.org/art-law/op-dauman.cfm
Its pretty well known in the biz.

[pornlaw]

That case is not on point. It states that Dauman owns the image, not Time. And that case is merely a decision on a Rule 12(b)(6) Motion, not on the merits of the case.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

that's the way i've always worked to.

and ya know, if i hire someone to change oil in my car, i dont let 'em put a bumper sticker on it that says "oil change by jiffy lube". and if a contractor does some work on the house, or even BUILDS the house, i dont let 'em stab a sign in yard that says "house by bubba's construction co".
.

While I agree with you....your real world examples don't fly. Look at the car in front of you in traffic. Most of them have "shitty dealer Chevrolet" or something different on the back panel, above the bumper.

And most house builders, carpenters, tradesmen, etc put a professional sign in your yard while they are doing work on your house. And put your house in their photo album to show others.

But I've made them remove their stupid emblems/stickers from my car before I close the deal.

[IamShaider]

I'm a designer, i never require link backs. clients pays for the websites that i create so why the hell should i ask them to place a permanent link back to my site as if they owe me something. but if i did something for free, thats a different story. a link back to my site would be very much appreciated for good will gesture. just my 2cents

[raymor]

It's a negotiable point, of course, but I don't think links back are too common, particularly
in this industry, where the webmasters know where to find a dozen other designers who
won't insist on a link back. Legally, you don't own the work, you only have limited license,
so the creator can put in any limitations they want and you can either agree to their license
or not. As noted by others, the exception is a "work made for hire" - a design done by an
actual employee as opposed to an independent contractor. The person is an employee is
the employer controls when and how they work, or can do so. If you can tell the person to
work from 9-5 and use a text editor to create the design, they are an employee. If you only
agree on what the final product should be, but not exactly how and when it's made, that's
an independent contractor. That's the main factor deciding employee versus contractor.
Other considerations include who owns the facility and equipment. If you come into my office
and use a computer I purchased to do work for me, you're probably an employee. If you
work in your own office using a computer you own, you're probably an independent contractor.
The other possibility for a "work for hire" is when the work is part of a larger whole, such as
someone doing just graphics for your site, where there is some writing evidencing that both
parties intended it to be a work for hire.

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

While I agree with you....your real world examples don't fly. Look at the car in front of you in traffic. Most of them have "shitty dealer Chevrolet" or something different on the back panel, above the bumper.

And most house builders, carpenters, tradesmen, etc put a professional sign in your yard while they are doing work on your house. And put your house in their photo album to show others.

You can remove that license plate frame or other thing that has the dealer's name on it, because
you own the car. Similarly you can remove a sign from your yard, unless you agreed to keep it
there for a certain period of time, because you own your yard. You do not generally own your
site design, but only license it, unless the you and the designer agree otherwise.

Let me throw out some related examples from our work, where people license a copy of
Strongbox or Throttlebox. At the bottom of the log in page, in small text, we have "protected
by Strongbox", which is linked, but we specifically tell people that they can edit that page
any way they want. If we didn't tell them they could, the default under the law is that they can
make no modifications other than whatever is truly required to use the system in the normal way.
That's what a lot of software companies do and at least one "competitor" encrypts their files
to prevent you from making any modifications or adjustments to fit your needs. We also allow
modifications to the configuration file, and via the plug in mechanism, because these are
designed to allow modifications without affecting security in an unexpected way. Apart from
the three ways we've set up for you to customize Strongbox, making random changes
to the code could effect security, perhaps in subtle ways that you wouldn't realize, so we
request that you consult with us about any other changes so we can advise you regarding
security and regarding the best way to accomplish your goal.

Because you only license software and don't own it, we could legally prevent all changes
and encrypt the scripts like some people do. We feel, though, that because you bought the system in order to USE it, we should allow whatever changes you need, and we make that
as easy as possible to do in tidy way via our custom_subs file, which is a plug-in type interface.
At the same time, it's important to us to protect the reputation of Strongbox as being secure,
so we want to talk to you before you make changes that could effect that and we've always
approved people's changes after making any needed security improvements.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by raymor

Because you only license software and don't own it, we could legally prevent all changes
and encrypt the scripts like some people do.

And who do we have to thank for this little bit of legal mumbo jumbo new area of law?
Wait for it..............................Microsoft.

[Hell Puppy]

Although I generally dont like to give free exposure to someone who I do not know or endorse, since it's been a subject here I will reveal who I looked at and who insipired this thread.

And drum roll please! Zuzana Designs

See section 7 and 11 and tell me why anyone in their right mind would agree to it:

http://www.zuzanadesigns.com/v3/terms.html

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Although I generally dont like to give free exposure to someone who I do not know or endorse, since it's been a subject here I will reveal who I looked at and who insipired this thread.

And drum roll please! Zuzana Designs

See section 7 and 11 and tell me why anyone in their right mind would agree to it:

http://www.zuzanadesigns.com/v3/terms.html

I gotta agree. One glaring problem is that if they even "feel" their "terms" have been violated, you are kinda fucked.
I have no idea where these folks reside, but it is reminiscent of the kind of shit eastern europeans try out. It happened to me earlier this year when a Prague firm experienced the full weight and power of the a very substantial American Express chargeback....which I knew was in my hip pocket if they continued their bad behaviour.

[Toby]

Sarah's crew does some nice work, but she pushes the self-promotion too hard for my taste. Mostly on GFY, but on some other boards too. It just doesn't seem very professional to me. The TOS being further evidence of the same mindset.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Toby

Sarah's crew does some nice work, but she pushes the self-promotion too hard for my taste. Mostly on GFY, but on some other boards too. It just doesn't seem very professional to me. The TOS being further evidence of the same mindset.

The best work in the world is kinda useless if you gotta put up with unreasonable demands. I am not sure just quite why anyone would do this. It is unprofessional for sure but must cost them work. This thread won't help them at all.
Perhaps at GFY, they don't read the fine print. I have seen worse...some cam girl contracts which are outrageous.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

The best work in the world is kinda useless if you gotta put up with unreasonable demands. I am not sure just quite why anyone would do this. It is unprofessional for sure but must cost them work. This thread won't help them at all.
Perhaps at GFY, they don't read the fine print. I have seen worse...some cam girl contracts which are outrageous.

Yup, my guess is i'm the only one that reads T&C BEFORE having work done.

Or maybe the young 'uns are too stupid to care about a traffic leak on each page or someone else owning part of their site.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Yup, my guess is i'm the only one that reads T&C BEFORE having work done.

Or maybe the young 'uns are too stupid to care about a traffic leak on each page or someone else owning part of their site.

Vote with your wallet. Dont use em if you dont agree. Dont know her just know what I see and Id never agree to those either.

God knows we have plenty of designers that frequent Oprano that dont have these T&Cs.

Forest represents one firm.
MIA Hammer has another.

[softball]

whatever happened to Hammer? He designed a site for me.

[topbanana]

No designer in his/her right mind should own copyrights paid by the clients. All these guys ever wanted were link backs to get their sites up the search engines.

Duh... that gives honest designers like us look real bad.

[thumbdesigner]

As designer I do not require link backs. I just put a small comment in the begining of CSS (which can be deleted anytime) like this:

@charset "utf-8";
/* Designed by ThumbDesigner.com */

I am not care of link backs. The sites I do are mainly visited of porn surfers so the traffic is not very good to be send to adult design services website. Well yeah there are webmasters too.. but that's not mean they looking for design services...

I am not care of rights. I am paid to design somebodys project so client owns it! The vaule is not link back but client positive feedback and client reffal to somebody. Thats the best way to say "thank you" to designer who made your project exactly as you want it.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

whatever happened to Hammer? He designed a site for me.

Talked to Hammer a few weeks ago. Seems to be alive and well.

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Talked to Hammer a few weeks ago. Seems to be alive and well.

good to hear.