Will Criminals In This Industry Bring It Down?

[Greg B]

I've seen in the past 18 months more backbiting and cheating and lying than I've seen in the past ten years of this business. Many webmasters are doing a great job of weeding out the crooks but the obvious desperation of some makes me keep a weather eye out more.

On the other hand there are new opportunities popping up all day. You sometimes wonder with all the tips and new programs etc. why some stoop to deception.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Greg B

I've seen in the past 18 months more backbiting and cheating and lying than I've seen in the past ten years of this business. Many webmasters are doing a great job of weeding out the crooks but the obvious desperation of some makes me keep a weather eye out more.

On the other hand there are new opportunities popping up all day. You sometimes wonder with all the tips and new programs etc. why some stoop to deception.

You cant ever bring it down. There will always be strong demand for porn.

What it does do is make it impossible to even remotely legitimize. We'll always be relegated to our seedy little underworld that is the adult industry.

[Rcourt64]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

You cant ever bring it down. There will always be strong demand for porn.

What it does do is make it impossible to even remotely legitimize. We'll always be relegated to our seedy little underworld that is the adult industry.

Would you cut 1/2 mil deal thru ICQ with someone you never met?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Rcourt64

Would you cut 1/2 mil deal thru ICQ with someone you never met?

I cut large deals thru ICQ or email with people Ive never met all the time.

I cut 2 earlier this year for a large sum. We had no contract either.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Rcourt64

Would you cut 1/2 mil deal thru ICQ with someone you never met?

I've never done one quite that large via ICQ, but I've done lots of 5 figure deals.

Would I do a half million without a face to face? I would, but any deal I do has checks and balances built in along with milestones to minimize my exposure.

Now I will also say that there's a very long list of people in this business who I wouldn't do a $20 deal with. Some I've met, some I haven't, but in all cases I've seen how they do business. To each their own, but I dont want their action.

[Rcourt64]

You guys are a bunch of fat fucking nuts I could never do money transaction of large amount with someone I never met. I would spend the extra cash and fly across the country if needed for any deal of 5 figures or higher.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Rcourt64

You guys are a bunch of fat fucking nuts I could never do money transaction of large amount with someone I never met. I would spend the extra cash and fly across the country if needed for any deal of 5 figures or higher.

I dont have to meet someone face to face to "know them". Reputation means a TON in this business since so much business is done on a virtual basis. Unlike a large mainstream corp, we dont spend 40% of our time travelling and meeting someone in a suit in order to do big deals.

And again, I have checks and balances on everything. Escrow for big deals. When hiring large projects out, milestones are effective, etc.

[softball]

well, rcourt has never cut a 50k deal in his life, we all know that. So why you reply is beyond me. Ya wanna talk about crooks, well there is always Mike AI and Serge Oprano. Both of who could have never made a pot to piss in in the real world. They made money, but so did a shit load of drug dealers. Nothing to brag about. Except they both now think they are respectable when we all know they, like Jon Allaby are just crooks and could never survive in polite society. LMFAO

that would be nick@ilynx for board tracker....jon???? you still livin large in the middle of nowhere?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Rcourt64

You guys are a bunch of fat fucking nuts I could never do money transaction of large amount with someone I never met. I would spend the extra cash and fly across the country if needed for any deal of 5 figures or higher.

I didnt want to fly to Paris.

[Rcourt64]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

well, rcourt has never cut a 50k deal in his life, we all know that. So why you reply is beyond me. Ya wanna talk about crooks, well there is always Mike AI and Serge Oprano. Both of who could have never made a pot to piss in in the real world. They made money, but so did a shit load of drug dealers. Nothing to brag about. Except they both now think they are respectable when we all know they, like Jon Allaby are just crooks and could never survive in polite society. LMFAO

that would be nick@ilynx for board tracker....jon???? you still livin large in the middle of nowhere?

You've been speaking to my financial director or something???
But no I haven't. not on icq at least. No

[Greg B]

I think what's happening is two-fold.

Old school guys who spent all their loot and are trying to get back in but either haven't studied or are running into the new crop of hustlers taking them for a ride.

Second, the industry is getting hit by wannabe hustlers who have some skills but would rather resort to stealing and cutting and running and bullshit instead of hard work.

I never did this full time because I didn't have to. I remember when guys were starting out in the biz and busted their asses working. Guys like Hun, Shemp, Thumbzilla, Big Lou, Gonzo, to name a few you could run into on the boards and it was like guys never got any sleep. I would do toons for sites and then for me because I make my content I would work non-stop sometimes for months but would come up with enough content for a year or two. I wasn't in this business to make a fortune but I had to realize if you don't make the money, your enemies will.

Some guys get caught up in dope or gambling or blackmail and you have to keep a sharp eye peeled for them. They'll snuggle up to you and like they say in the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #48 "The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife!". It's really pitiful to see once stand up guys let these hoodlums run roughshod all over them but when you see behind the scenes and get those ' my client would like to negotiate a settlement ' thingies and they're in rehab you kinda wonder how much damage was really done.

Key thing is if the bullshit doesn't stop you're going to see processors and hosting companies drop anything adult like a rock due to increasing liability. Sure there'll be a major demand for porn but that demand is not going to override legal fines and shit. Yeah servers can be set up outside of the U.S. but would your surfer trust their money with it?

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Greg B

Key thing is if the bullshit doesn't stop you're going to see processors and hosting companies drop anything adult like a rock due to increasing liability. Sure there'll be a major demand for porn but that demand is not going to override legal fines and shit. Yeah servers can be set up outside of the U.S. but would your surfer trust their money with it?

If we dont regulate ourselves the government will do it for us.

[Hammer]

Greg, this industry was started by criminals, many of whom are now living in Panama and other places where they continue to be criminals and avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

The question I have for you though is, why would criminals bring this industry down? The gambling industry is alive and well and has been for thousands of years and it's always been run by criminals.

[Rcourt64]

The Illuminati & Big brother are watching and waiting for they're next opportunity to maneuver another major Internet crime scandal inside the Adult Industry here in America



Oh ya.. and Google is just steps behind to being controlled by them also

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

You cant ever bring it down. There will always be strong demand for porn.

What it does do is make it impossible to even remotely legitimize. We'll always be relegated to our seedy little underworld that is the adult industry.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Greg, this industry was started by criminals, many of whom are now living in Panama and other places where they continue to be criminals and avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

The question I have for you though is, why would criminals bring this industry down? The gambling industry is alive and well and has been for thousands of years and it's always been run by criminals.

The gambling industry USED to be run by criminals. Not anymore. It got cleaned up in a massive way.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

The gambling industry USED to be run by criminals. Not anymore. It got cleaned up in a massive way.

This is true of Vegas, reservations and other LEGALIZED gambling territories.

But there's still a ton of money moves around, especially during football season, via local bookmakers. Most true gambling addicts aren't in places like Vegas.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by gonzo

If we dont regulate ourselves the government will do it for us.

You can say that again! Don't be surprised if they aren't already by proxy.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Greg, this industry was started by criminals, many of whom are now living in Panama and other places where they continue to be criminals and avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

The question I have for you though is, why would criminals bring this industry down? The gambling industry is alive and well and has been for thousands of years and it's always been run by criminals.

Hammer, I remember when this industry started and from whence and it wasn't criminals. Some were hustlers for sure as soon as they found there was money to be made but I remember back in the 80's when we used the various intranets and such to send nude pics around. That was just us geeks sending telram images of pin-ups.

That graduated and got more sophisticated. The crooks came in when funding for developing projects couldn't be had. Gangsters had investment capital and crooks rolled in. Let us not mince words here, the criminal element is alive and well and part of the landscape. The problem is how long can one be a criminal until one can mask it and have themselves accepted as legitimate?

I've studied organized crime extensively. Had to for my jobs. It goes wayyyyyy back to even the 1700s. Gangs are nothing new and the tactics basically the same. The problem with the internet is that the criminal act done today only has a life as long as people are unaware of it. Like those Nigerian email scams. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain they're bullshit but the general population falls for that shit like a dumb blonde in heels. Even when the evening news tells people they're scams they still fall for it. Why? Because inherently people are easy to bullshit.

Now, when people catch a scammer they can blast it all over the internet. More victims join in and soon a ripple becomes a tidal wave.

So today's criminal often becomes tomorrow's respectable businessman.

Talk about wolves in the fold!

[Sexyteaser]

Right now it looks like some of these mainstream scammers will be taking a lot of attention off adult and finally the blame will be shared; actually the way it looks to me the blame meter really goes to mainstream right now. I am trying to follow the money trail with the cj/zango stuff if anyone can help email me... shellee@pornafia.com

Shellee

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

Right now it looks like some of these mainstream scammers will be taking a lot of attention off adult and finally the blame will be shared; actually the way it looks to me the blame meter really goes to mainstream right now. I am trying to follow the money trail with the cj/zango stuff if anyone can help email me... shellee@pornafia.com

Shellee

Shellee

Raw Alex is pretty good at sumarizing all of this. Hes been on it for a while. Ill point him to this thread.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

Right now it looks like some of these mainstream scammers will be taking a lot of attention off adult and finally the blame will be shared; actually the way it looks to me the blame meter really goes to mainstream right now. I am trying to follow the money trail with the cj/zango stuff if anyone can help email me... shellee@pornafia.com

Shellee

Oh rest assured there is everything from guys who'll take a rather unethical shortcut to outright thieves in both courts.

There are a couple of differences though. The mainstream guys dont tend to be quite as shameless or prolific. Most mainstream ventures are created with an exit strategy in mind from day one. That exit plan is typically buy out or IPO. For both of those you have to be able to withstand a lot of scrutiny at disclosure time.

Whereas in adult, it's very very tough to exit. Early on we saw a lot of business people come to adult simply because that was the easiest place to monetize internet action. The playing field has levelled quite a bit though, the easy money is gone. There are still business people here, but they're the minority.

Instead, if you look at the sheer number of participants you'll find a ton of college age kids who are quite content to work for beer money in their spare time. And if they ever make enough money to buy a BMW, they consider themselves a success.

Another group you find are those who for whatever reason do not fit in the typical 9-5 corporate world. It could be they just aren't responsible enough to show up for work every day. They could be rebellious. They may not be able to pass a piss test, but for some reason they cant simply go get a corporate job.

Inside both of these groups you find people who are willing to take some chances and may be predisposed to ignore the law and ethics and do what's easiest.

The really dangerous ones to the business though are those who are calculating. They know right from wrong, they are very smart, but they come in the door with a business plan of get as much as you can any way you can and get out. The FTC is ineffective against these type operations and it goes all the way back to Crescent and Xpics. What's a $30 million dollar fine and payback if you made $150 million over the same period? As I said in another thread, it's cost of doing business.

[Greg B]

Well said Hell Puppy.

However, don't count the authorities out. They're well aware of the bs that goes on in this business but due to higher priorities they don't pounce as much. They have terrorists and mad scientists and ex wives to deal with.

The worst thing is that due to the stupidity of some message boards that have allowed racial epithets to be used WHILE the members were doing business and representing companies the shit has hit the fan. Whether you're in porn or not, if you use racial epithets while on the fucking job you DOOM the company you work with or represent.

Sigwhore? Using racial epithets while promoting someone's program? Busted!

Don't worry when some of these sponsors realize how fucking stupid their sigwhores have been the past few years you'll see not only sponsors cracking down but you'll see processing companies and hosting companies likewise. Also making threats on boards is considered one of three types of felonies. Just had a meeting earlier this evening with that shit with a couple of the fellas at the Veteran's group.

See, "even in jest" doesn't hold water if you're a business and you're not the press. Your protections are shakey there and since everything is archived many assholes still have several years for the statute of limitations to wear off. I'm watching dudes fall off as I type.

Fuck em'. They're scumbags who got caught in their own shit.

[gonzo]

I dont know about racial slurs but we sure did have a lot of fun just raising hell here on Oprano a few years ago.

Look at the alexa ranking from a couple years past.

Im certain some of my public battles drew a lot of traffic to this board.
Its ok though that is what I was being paid to do.

People are drawn to a train wreck and add to it that I was fucking back with folks that were due some payback . . . well you get the idea.

I dont have the time or the energy to do that any longer. And in all honesty its much more damaging these days to state the facts and ask well thought out questions.

Every once in a while you might see me raising some hell on here.
A feller cant deny his roots.

But if you are serious about the legal aspects and getting involved to a greater degree I recommend my friend Shellee Hale's board at pornafia.org.

Shes working on some good stuff right now involving theft from affiliates.

Technology has seriously out paced the legal system and I beleive she will help make some much needed changes.

Its also the reason many of us are watching closely for the results of the Naked Rhino vs. NATS lawsuit.

[RawAlex]

it is also why everyone is watching that CJ lawsuit as well. Most program owners never considered that their affiliates make up a potential class for a class action suit. I think companies like AFF are risking finding this out at some point. One successful suit will lead to tons more.

I don't think you will find a single program out there that doesn't have some sort of either overt defect in their tours (such as losing codes or accidental hard code links), engages in shaving / milking / affiliate adjustments, or purchases traffic / knowingly accepts traffic from sources that interfere with the affiliate / program relationship.

Example, if you run a program, and you pay zango to pop up on your signup pages, you are competing directly with your affiliates and in fact are attempting to profit from their work without paying.

Example, if you run a program, and you are aware that an affiliate is doing the same popup over join with Zango...

Example, if your software has the potential (coded into it) to shave or modify affiliate stats to reflect anything other than the true sales...

Example, if your program is coded to lose affiliate links in certain cases or has hard coded links to replace your affiliate links in certain manners.

My favorite one right now is the "pop over" tour. You click your affiliate link, you get the tour, you click any link on the tour, and the next page is opened in a new window, and the original window is blurred and redirected to another program or site without your affiliate code. If your user has a popup blocker, you could end up losing 100% of your sales.

There are so many ways that programs work AGAINST their affiliates, and each of these methods brings potential for class action.

[Sexyteaser]

Well here is what I experienced the last couple of days. Left a message for Tom Vadnais at CJ and the next morning CJ showed up on my caller ID at 7AM when I answered they hung up. The next morning I got another call this time it was someone that claimed Tom asked him to call me - after a brief conversation not giving up too much of what I know it became clear when I was told they have 10 of the best forensic computer specialist that they are fully aware of what is going on... I then found spyware from CJ on my computer and don't know who spent most of last night trying to hack my computer, but I will find out - I ended up just unplugging it from the router after about 600 pings. I feel like I am in the movie "The Net."

I think the 50-100 billion dollars being stolen every year is a hell of a lot more obscene than the content they are trying to prosecute - I really wish someone would get their priorities straight.

[softball]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I dont know about racial slurs but we sure did have a lot of fun just raising hell here on Oprano a few years ago.

Look at the alexa ranking from a couple years past.

Im certain some of my public battles drew a lot of traffic to this board.
Its ok though that is what I was being paid to do.

People are drawn to a train wreck and add to it that I was fucking back with folks that were due some payback . . . well you get the idea.

I dont have the time or the energy to do that any longer. And in all honesty its much more damaging these days to state the facts and ask well thought out questions.

Every once in a while you might see me raising some hell on here.
A feller cant deny his roots.

But if you are serious about the legal aspects and getting involved to a greater degree I recommend my friend Shellee Hale's board at pornafia.org.

Shes working on some good stuff right now involving theft from affiliates.

Technology has seriously out paced the legal system and I beleive she will help make some much needed changes.

Its also the reason many of us are watching closely for the results of the Naked Rhino vs. NATS lawsuit.

There were public battles on Oprano? Say it ain't so.