Don't fear the 'meegra

[Hammer]

PornoDoggy, just like Serge you're attempting to argue a point with points that have no correlation. We are talking about illegal immigrants that only come to this country to make money but have no intentions of making this country their home. The immigrants you are talking about looked at America as a brave new world and were proud to live here. They also became naturalized citizens and paid taxes just like everone else.

Sure they brought their cultures here and I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is my government telling me that we must make schools bilingual and that stores must hang signs in more than one language and it's all for the ILLEGAL immigrants, not the ones that actually came here to live and work and become citizens.

Now, if you want to compare apples to apples, you should be talking about the immigrants that came here and ran the Indians onto reservations. Then you might actually have a point.

[Winetalk.com]

if you don't see correlation, it doesn't mean they aren't there.
As the good book says:
"Eyes they have but they can see not,
ears they have but they can hear not..."

Hammer, your fallacy is as old the Holy Bible.

[JoesHO]

I love tacos ! poor people like me can afford them and they are good.

[redneckroy]

Raymond: 12:30 is lunch.
Charlie: What do you want?
Raymond: Wednesday is fish sticks. Green lime jello for dessert.
Charlie: You want another apple juice?
Raymond: No, orange soda. Uh oh, it's 12:31.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by Hammer

PornoDoggy, just like Serge you're attempting to argue a point with points that have no correlation. We are talking about illegal immigrants that only come to this country to make money but have no intentions of making this country their home. The immigrants you are talking about looked at America as a brave new world and were proud to live here. They also became naturalized citizens and paid taxes just like everone else.

Sure they brought their cultures here and I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is my government telling me that we must make schools bilingual and that stores must hang signs in more than one language and it's all for the ILLEGAL immigrants, not the ones that actually came here to live and work and become citizens.

Now, if you want to compare apples to apples, you should be talking about the immigrants that came here and ran the Indians onto reservations. Then you might actually have a point.

If you don't see the correlation you choose not to. You continue to presume that bilingual signs are strickly for the illegals - and I don't think that's the case. I think it speaks more to the bias with which you approach the issue than to the actual facts.

The majority of the illegals today want the same think my (paternal) krauthead great-great-grandparents did in the 1890s, and for that matter the same thing as my (maternal) Quaker ancestors did. My dad's parents went to public schools that were bilingual (German and English). My great-grandfather, who was a member of several German organizations, had hassles during World War I not unlike what some Muslims had after 9/11. He had travel restrictions placed on him within the city of St. Louis, even though he had at least one son "over there."

Whether you like it or not, this whole debate is deja vu all over again - and your opinions would make you a perfect candidate for the No-Nothing party, circa 1850.

Your comment about the immigrants that came here to commit genocide on the native people, and run the survivors into reservations, doesn't really make any sense. When you get right down to it, though, illegal immigration is merely a case of the Chicanos coming home to roost. The Southwest, where they enter, is ours only because we stole it from them. They seem to be intent on taking it back.

[Mike AI]

We are a nation of laws. Until we secure our borders the rest does not matter. We should not have an amnesty program. We need to also adjust our legal immigration policies.

Right now thanks to Ted Kennedy we have an immigration policy that is designed to fail!!

We used to take the best and brightest from around the world, and these people contributed to the economy. Now all we get is the poorest of the world.

Our immigration policy is designed to cripple this Country. I am sure Ted is happy.

[Winetalk.com]

Isn't it what Bishop is trying to do with Oprano?

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

Isn't it what Bishop is trying to do with Oprano?

Actually this does seem to be the policy Bishop and AEBN instituted for Oprano. I really do not know what their intentions were, they never consulted me.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

We are a nation of laws. Until we secure our borders the rest does not matter. We should not have an amnesty program. We need to also adjust our legal immigration policies.

Right now thanks to Ted Kennedy we have an immigration policy that is designed to fail!!

We used to take the best and brightest from around the world, and these people contributed to the economy. Now all we get is the poorest of the world.

Our immigration policy is designed to cripple this Country. I am sure Ted is happy.

Speaking of know-nothings ...

There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between Ted Kennedy and John McCain on immigration - at least, there hasn't been. (Don't know what's going to happen as he begins to kiss the ass of the ultra-right in pursuit of '08). The current situation is just as much the responsibility of Republicans who are concerned with ensuring that donors have access to the cheap labor they want, and any thinking person knows it.

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Speaking of know-nothings ...

There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between Ted Kennedy and John McCain on immigration - at least, there hasn't been. (Don't know what's going to happen as he begins to kiss the ass of the ultra-right in pursuit of '08). The current situation is just as much the responsibility of Republicans who are concerned with ensuring that donors have access to the cheap labor they want, and any thinking person knows it.

PD - I am talking about the changes in immigration policy Ted oversaw 20+ years ago. I am not talking about now.

Plus McCain is not Conservative, he is an opportunist. He will never be President.

[PornoDoggy]

Bullshit.

Last time I checked, Ted Kennedy was only one of one hundred Senators, even twenty years ago. If Reagan hadn't wanted that bill passed it would have never cleared the House - Tip O'Neil would have seen to it.

[sarettah]

And a lot of what was in the '86 bill was changed in '96, '98 and '04

[Hammer]

Bilingual signs in Florida have nothing to do with legal immigrants or else they'd be in many languages besides just English and Spanish. Florida's econonomy relies on tourists but I don't see any German or French signs in Target... only Spanish. I also don't hear about too many non-Mexican, Cuban or Haitian immigrants being rounded up and shipped home either.

btw. My father is French Canadian and my mother is German and I was born in Belgium. We all are American citizens though. I tell you that lest you think my opinions are somehow based on the belief that my ancestors are from America which they wouldn't be unless they were American Indian.

As for why my comment about the immigrants that took over America from the rightful inhabitants, I don't see how that isn't applicable to your points. They came here from other countries, forced their way of life on the people that lived here. They refused to learn the language or try to fit in, but instead brought their own cultures and turned this country into what they had left. How is that different than immigrants that move to Miami and set up their own little Cuba, refuse to learn the language and are currently spreading?

Not to mention all the legal Asians that are moving here, which actually worries me far more than the Mexican or Cubans. One day in the future I'm afraid we'll be answering to the Chinese.

[Winetalk.com]

Hammer is worried...that disturbs me a lot.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

Hammer is worried...that disturbs me a lot.

You should be worried too, unless you like communism.

[Winetalk.com]

May I cuddle you to ease your worries?

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

May I cuddle you to ease your worries?

No thanks, I've got my wife for that.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Bilingual signs in Florida have nothing to do with legal immigrants or else they'd be in many languages besides just English and Spanish. Florida's econonomy relies on tourists but I don't see any German or French signs in Target...

Go to Fort Myers. Most stores have a sign that states they speak english and german. Hardly any spanish signs there at all.

Btw, at the Grand Canyon, most signs there are in English, French and German.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Hammer

No thanks, I've got my wife for that.

"there are two things in this world - results and everything else!"

You are still worried and that upsets me. I think I can cuddle you better than your wife.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

You are still worried and that upsets me. I think I can cuddle you better than your wife.

It warms my cockles to know that you're concerned, but unless you have breasts and a vagina, the likelihood of us ever cuddling is about the same as the likelihood that I'll ever say 'yes sir' to a Chinaman.

[PornoDoggy]

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried. Bigots have been an integral part of this country for a long time, and the likelyhood that that sort of inferior subspecies will die out any time soon is regretably small.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Hammer

It warms my cockles to know that you're concerned, but unless you have breasts and a vagina, the likelihood of us ever cuddling is about the same as the likelihood that I'll ever say 'yes sir' to a Chinaman.

If the made guy, in charge of the entire NY construction racket could suck cock, EVERYBODY is corruptable and you are not exception. I know your post says very soft NO, but I interpret it as "maybe".

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable.

and that includes thinking about cuddling with me.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried.

I understand what you're pointing out and I'm just enjoying the lively debate. I find conversations that stimulate thought, interesting and I've had my opinions changed many times in the past on issues I felt strongly about.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I find conversations that stimulate thought, interesting and I've had my opinions changed many times in the past on issues I felt strongly about.

I am glad you are stimilated by our conversation and keep an open mind about cuddling.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried. Bigots have been an integral part of this country for a long time, and the likelyhood that that sort of inferior subspecies will die out any time soon is regretably small.

Actually, the first attempt to bring federal contol to immigration was 1790, 2 years after the constitution was ratified:

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared...ishist/436.htm

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared...hist/index.htm

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

I am glad you are stimilated by our conversation and keep an open mind about cuddling.

I try to keep an open mind about most things, although I'll never drink French wine with sushi.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I try to keep an open mind about most things, although I'll never drink French wine with sushi.

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

When I have sushi, I like to go Japanese all the way and either drink saki, Japanese beer or tea, although I'm sure some French wines go very well with sushi. I imagine there are some American and Australian wines that go well too.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

PLEASE NO TALK OF SUSHI AND WINE.

Last time that happened, I had police over with guns pointed at my head!!!

[CDSmith]

Here are some arguments presented by various Americans on other sites:

This is a simple issue. Americans can not just go an become instant residents in another country. At best we can get a visa but often it is limited to X amount of days per year we can even stay in some places.
Why should this be any different for the Mexicans? If you are not legal, you are ILLEGAL and should not be allowed to stay.

Why make it easier? If they can't not be bothered to follow the rules on getting into the country what other rules won't they be bothered with? I have no problem if somebody wants to come here in the right way and make an honest living for themselves though.

"Why make it easier?" - Because it's going to happen. If you want to control it, you have to make it easier for workers to enter the country legally. Because where you have economic disparity to this degree unregulated immigration will happen. The system is complicated and expensive. As long as it's easier to hop the fence and take your chances that's what people will do.

Educate yourselves about why this is happening.
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/proje...r/nogales.html
http://www.mennoweekly.org/FEB/02-09...ales02-09.html
http://www.mennoweekly.org/FEB/02-09...otos02-09.html

I am not anti-immigrant; I am all for people who want to enter the country legally. My family came over from Spain many years ago. My relatives did it legally. That meant learning English and being a part of the culture. They didn’t sneak over the border in the middle of the night and then run into the streets demanding this, that and the other. Legal immigrants who enter through the proper channels by and large do come here to make society a better place.

Illegal immigrants do not come here to make this country a better place or to contribute to our society. They come here to suck up our resources, housing, handout programs, food and jobs and they ship the fruits of their labor back across the border. Illegal immigrants do not get immunized properly before crossing, this means that they bring disease and sickness with them.

And to fuck with their sad stories. I've got a few of those myself and they don’t entitle me to break the law to fill my needs, wants or desires. I cant just march into Canada or China or Russia or any other country and declare myself a citizen. Why should other people be able to do the same here?

Don’t post a link to a liberal California college and two to a newspaper for religious fruitcakes and tell me that’s why I should let it happen. The liberals have gotten this country into a huge fucking mess with their preaching tolerance and peace and unity bullshit its incredible. And the GOP is equally responsible for the mess because they keep wanting to spend every dime they can get a hold of.

So if you think that they should be allowed to come in here and do whatever they want and we should sit back and let them, well then fuck you because you are not an American and you are the one who doesn’t deserve to be here anymore.

I don't see this issue as something that a lot of Americans are just going to "accept" and let slide simply because it's been happening for centuries.

Speaking purely as a Canadian, and that encompasses the fact that we up here have our own history of language issues plus albeit much smaller illegal immigration problem, I will say this: I would love to see a workable solution in the USA where thoese illegals who are not raping your system for all it's worth be given a bit of a break. Not a free pass, but a new avenue to gain the citizenship they desperately seek.

As for the rest, well...Call me crazy but I'm not big on people just being able to walk into my country and live off our tax dollars. That's of course my first reaction, I'm well aware that there are many facets to this argument.

[PornoDoggy]

Ah, but you see I think that the stories of them "living off our tax dollars" are exaggerated to give some folks the vapors.

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Ah, but you see I think that the stories of them "living off our tax dollars" are exaggerated to give some folks the vapors.

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.

Someone mark today down, I agree with PD

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Someone mark today down, I agree with PD

>PD quickly and quietly checks what he posted to see if he made a serious mistake.<

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

>PD quickly and quietly checks what he posted to see if he made a serious mistake.<

Fokker!

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?

[Rcourt64]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?

Oh My...The Apocalypse draws closer

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?

If Mike AI comes in here and agrees too, I may have to commit myself to a re-education camp ...

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Sammy

PLEASE NO TALK OF SUSHI AND WINE.

Last time that happened, I had police over with guns pointed at my head!!!

ok, how about we talk big boobs and wine instead?

[softball]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

Really? The French make white wine? Damn when did that start? You mean Chablis isn't Californian and doesn't always come with a screw top and a handle? You learn something new every day around here. Thanks Serge. You know how much respect I have for your opinions on anything to do with fine living and good taste.

[redneckroy]

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?

[softball]

.

[softball]

.

[softball]

What was I thinking? Why bother?

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by redneckroy

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?

I mean... *cough*... shit that caught me offguard.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

.

Could be the best post I've ever read of yours.

[peon]

Originally Posted by redneckroy

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?

Oh shit bro, I thought it was Howard Stern with lipstick on!!! LOL!!!!

[Winetalk.com]

People, shame on you! Don't be jelous over his money producing wife and his glorious living off 2000 uniques a day.

His shift at McD starts at 9 am, so don't expect any responces till late afternoon PT.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

People, shame on you! Don't be jelous over his money producing wife and his glorious living off 2000 uniques a day.

His shift at McD starts at 9 am, so don't expect any responces till late afternoon PT.

I suppose you will while away the hours poring over brochures for your next old guy package tour. You know making sure the bus is comfortable and the tips are included. Hey serge, I hear there are some bargains to Dahab. Act quickly.