The US is winning in Iraq. Number do not lie.

[Mike AI]

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf


The past 6 months shows REAL progress across the board. Of course you will not see this in the main stream media. You only see chaos and mayham - it is what sells ( and that it hurts the US effort and Bush makes it more appealing for the main stream media to harp on)

The Brookings Institute is not a Conservative think tank - they have plenty of moderates, and liberals.

[PornoDoggy]

Robert McNamara would have been proud of that report.

[Mike AI]

Witty retort!

[Bishop]

I feel like I'm reading something that was ment for the President's eyes only.

[JoesHO]

More death than ever this month, you are RIGHT the numbers do not lie !

[JR]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

More death than ever this month, you are RIGHT the numbers do not lie !

if you want to make an omlette, you gotta break a few eggs

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

More death than ever this month, you are RIGHT the numbers do not lie !

Desperation. It is easy for terrorist to kill children, blow up mosques and other soft targets. They also know that people like you will see the mayhem on TV and get your sphincter all tight. The terrorist know how you think Joe along with PD and all the other vietnam scardy-cats, and they know the media will keep showing the images trying to undermine the war effort.

The US cannot be defeated in battle. We can only lose at home.

The terrorists are defeating you Joe, how does it feel to be a patsy for some ass-backwards guy who lives in cave?

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

Desperation. It is easy for terrorist to kill children, blow up mosques and other soft targets. They also know that people like you will see the mayhem on TV and get your sphincter all tight. The terrorist know how you think Joe along with PD and all the other vietnam scardy-cats, and they know the media will keep showing the images trying to undermine the war effort.

The US cannot be defeated in battle. We can only lose at home.

The terrorists are defeating you Joe, how does it feel to be a patsy for some ass-backwards guy who lives in cave?

You sound just like a Frenchman.* BTW - I wear glasses, so I think the appropriate retort for me is four-eyed scaredy-cat.

You should feel lucky. You have a scapegoat already in place when what seems to be the inevitable will happen - Iraq collapses into civil war, in a chaos that makes the former Yugoslovia look organized and orderly. Adopt the inevitable right wing retort, and blame it on the liberals instead of flat out fucking stupidity (or worse) in the war plan.

(You won't) Face it, Mikey, Your boys flat out fucking blew it. I don't know whether Bush/Cheney/Rice/McRumnama are just criminally stupid, or whether they believed their own blowback - but the inept way they planned for the occupation of Iraq (boots on the ground) has all but ensured long-term disasterous results for the United States. I've been saying it for years - boots on the ground early, and this clusterfuck would have been avioded.

The biggest similarity to Vietnam is that the United States is acting in concert with a puppet government that has no credibility with the populace. In 'nam the Army was riddled with Cong traitors. In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country. They are sharpening their knives to break Bosnia's records, I'm afraid.

The saddest fucking part is that it is all could have been avoided. (boots on the ground early) A few more months and a genuine effort to develop a true coalition, or even a few hundred thousand more U.S and U.K. troops could have resulted in Iraq being occupied like Eurpoe was in the aftermath of WWII. Instead we occupied Iraq just like we did Vietnam - on a part-time basis.

* - There's still plenty of Frenchman smarting over getting their asses kicked in Vietnam by the Communists and in Algeria by the Muslims.

Hmmm ... why is the song "fools rush in" running through my head?

[meatpounder]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

The Brookings Institute is not a Conservative think tank - they have plenty of moderates, and liberals.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...ings_Institute

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by meatpounder

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...ings_Institute

Don't cloud the issue with relevant facts, commie.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

* - There's still plenty of Frenchman smarting over getting their asses kicked in Vietnam by the Communists and in Algeria by the Muslims.

Smarting?

Nope , there are a load of Frenchman sitting round saying "Je te l'avais dit"

[Mike AI]

PD I pity you, your mind must be so scarred from the 60-70s and the Vietnam experience you cannot think straight! Have you ever contemplated that people of your ilk, especially the politicians who continually go blast Bush and the Military and talk of a pull out actually HELP our enemies? The terrorists have been pretty clear that they are waiting for the US to withdraw, just like we have in the recent past - because the lack of political will.

Have you read what the terrorists say?? They are very clear what their plans are. The terrorists understand America, and people like you are their best allies in hurting the US war effort. The terrorists know they cannot defeat us militarily, but they also know they can cause mayhem and terror and have the defeatist like you doing their bidding.

As far as war having setbacks - that is the nature of war. It is overcoming the setbacks that leads to victory - not whining and harping on them to undermine the Country.

PD get on the bandwagon now, because Bush is not going to pull out of Iraq and we will be more secure because of it.

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Smarting?

Nope , there are a load of Frenchman sitting round saying "Je te l'avais dit"

The Frenchman I see are spending times protesting, rioting, having sit-ins, shutting down train traffic, etc... etc...

All because they want guarunteed jobs for life.

The only protest in modern times to keep the status quo.

France will continue to decline. Even a modest reforms cannot get past the people.

The French people do not want to compete in the global economy, once again they want to retreat from competition.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

The biggest similarity to Vietnam is that the United States is acting in concert with a puppet government that has no credibility with the populace. In 'nam the Army was riddled with Cong traitors.

how is that possible for an elected government, elected in an election where more people participated in any elections in the US?

[JR]

the french defeat in vietnam was pretty interesting. war is just not their thing. they moved almost all their forces to a large valley that was indefensible and then got blasted into submission from every side. french suck at war. they are pretty good with cheese though.

[JoesHO]

WORST PRESIDENT IN HOSTORY mark my words, there might even be jail time for this one a first in the history of the USA .

[PornoDoggy]

Sigh.

For all the accusations you make about others being stuck in the Vietnam era, your rhetoric could have come straight from the mouth of Nixon. Those are not new threads, Mike - Bush, Rice, and Rummy are naked as jaybirds.

I was "on the bandwagon" until it became obvious that the President, the National Security Adviser, and the Secretary of Defense were pursuing a strategy that could not win the peace. (There was never any question about winning the war.)

I am not an advocate of withdrawal - but what we are doing now is not working. What worries me is that the next President will adopt a Nixon/Kissinger approach to the war - declare victory, withdraw, and hope that things don't collapse so fast as to reveal the clusterfuck we've created so blatantly as to make it obvious even to the voluntarily blind like you.

[JR]

Originally Posted by JoesHO

WORST PRESIDENT IN HOSTORY mark my words, there might even be jail time for this one a first in the history of the USA .

everyone on the other side of the fence during almost EVERY presidents administration says THE SAME THING. i think your blinders are on too tight!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

how is that possible for an elected government, elected in an election where more people participated in any elections in the US?

Please - I do believe that Iraq has always had higher voter turnout than the U.S., even under the previous government. (That's not a completely fair comparison, and I know it.)

Interesting elections. Most of the declared candidates were unknown to the people voting for them, and went into hiding the minute they declared their candidacy in order to live to election day. The vote went pretty much along sectarian lines, and that situation is getting worse instead of better.

In quoting me you left off "In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country." This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

everyone on the other side of the fence during almost EVERY presidents administration says THE SAME THING. i think your blinders are on too tight!

I honestly think that if the Democrats take over one or the other houses of Congress in the next election, they ought to go very retro.

Revive the (Senator) Truman Commission that investigated defense contractors. I suspect, even if you exempt Brown & Root, that the results would be most interesting, to say the least.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

i dont really care about Iraq or Bush to be honest. mostly, i think the discussions are interesting. i just think that people in these types of arguments tend to be so polarized that they lack any real objectivity on the subject and in spite of such polarized views, no one can admit they are biased and one sided. thats usually evident in the remarks and comments which completely dismiss any other perspective on the subject.

Iraq imploded when the army and other fighting forces dissapeared as the US/British et al rolled in. looting. no electricity, no medicines, no functioning schools, no functioning hospitals no water etc etc etc etc etc. it was the end of the world as we knew it according to some. it was a war that was going to cause the entire middle east to rise up against the US and cause revolutions everywhere.

people were quick to point out how Iraq was fucked beyond repair and quick to highlight all the shit that was going wrong. tremedous strides have been made since then which include democratic elections, new military, new police (who have enough conviction to work knowing they are targets of extremists and are frequently killed)... yet somehow, people seem to believe that things have not improved in spite of the obvious.

i would say that generally, no one can argue that the occupation was poorly planned. i would even support the argument that bush is borderline retarded. however, i really do not believe that things are as terrible as you and others would have us believe.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

In quoting me you left off "In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country." This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

are you saying this "problem" is worsening since day 1, or improving or remaining unchanged?

"...the less credibility it will have with the people" is an assumption on your part based on your interpretation of events. i think you will have a hard time making the case that the situation you mentioned above is getting worse and not better.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I honestly think that if the Democrats take over one or the other houses of Congress in the next election, they ought to go very retro.

Revive the (Senator) Truman Commission that investigated defense contractors. I suspect, even if you exempt Brown & Root, that the results would be most interesting, to say the least.

i think that if the democrats could FINALLY put someone forward that is electable, they should have no problem winning. then it will be the other sides turn to spend 4-8 years bitching constantly about the revival of communism and give everyone a break from comparisons to bush and hitler.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

are you saying this "problem" is worsening since day 1, or improving or remaining unchanged?

"...the less credibility it will have with the people" is an assumption on your part based on your interpretation of events. i think you will have a hard time making the case that the situation you mentioned above is getting worse and not better.

I do think the situation on the ground in Iraq, particularly as it relates to the Iraqi Army, is deteriorating at this time.

[Inabon]

i just wonder if any other super power would decide that bush is bad and had to be taken out in the name of USA democracy and USA be invaded if all these pro war fuckers would go ahead and welcome the invaders..


have you ever stoped and think how i would feel if it was completely the other way around????

ahh well we will never see that.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Inabon

i just wonder if any other super power would decide that bush is bad and had to be taken out in the name of USA democracy and USA be invaded if all these pro war fuckers would go ahead and welcome the invaders...

They won't, but the other 49% would probably be very happy

[Winetalk.com]

Bush is doing what he is doing for one reason only:
USA is now only ONE superpower...the collapse of the Soviet Union has created imbalance in the world.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

USA is now only ONE superpower...the collapse of the Soviet Union has created imbalance in the world.

And it'll probably stay that way for a long time, there's no catching up with this:

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/fact.../2067rank.html

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

Bush is doing what he is doing for one reason only:
USA is now only ONE superpower...the collapse of the Soviet Union has created imbalance in the world.

That would assume a bi-polar system is balance.

[Mike AI]

There is no doubt the occupation was poorly planned. We should have had overwhelming force and stopped the country from going into chaos.

War by it's very nature is controlled mayhem, it can never be perfectly planned or executed. The secret is to learn adapt on the fly quickly, and having the ability to overcome.

There has been no perfect war. However if one looks at history, this war has been very successful in many ways.

I remember before the war people saying it would be a huge blood bath for US troops, losing 20-K men, WMDs being used on battler field and in cities (Israel).

Then 10 days into the war, with the operational pause, the same people were saying we were already in a Quagmire and predicting the war would all be down hill.... 7 days later Baghdad fell.

Now the same people are saying the same things. Of course after 3 years people can point out mistakes - and there are plenty - but once again I say this is the nature of war.

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by JR

the french defeat in vietnam was pretty interesting. war is just not their thing. they moved almost all their forces to a large valley that was indefensible and then got blasted into submission from every side. french suck at war. they are pretty good with cheese though.

and wine.

They seemed to be effective in protesting as well. Maybe we can get the students and unions to go to IRaq and hold protests and sit-ins!

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

Bush is doing what he is doing for one reason only:
USA is now only ONE superpower...the collapse of the Soviet Union has created imbalance in the world.

so TRUE

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

WMDs being used on battler field and in cities (Israel).

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

THERE WERE NO WMD'S ONLY OIL AND A DICTATOR AND HE WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO RAISE GAS PRICES.


anyways you guys enjoy your war as long as it is in the other side of the world.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Inabon

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

THERE WERE NO WMD'S ONLY OIL AND A DICTATOR AND HE WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO RAISE GAS PRICES.


anyways you guys enjoy your war as long as it is in the other side of the world.

Do I hear some mute squeaky noise coming waaaay down there from number 101?

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/fact.../2067rank.html

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Timon

Do I hear some mute squeaky noise coming waaaay down there from number 101?

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/fact.../2067rank.html

ermn panama does not have an army since 89 man WTF are you talking about


thats probably the money spent by USA leaving bases behind.

anyways

there were no WMD in IRAQ period.

only oil.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Inabon

ermn panama does not have an army since 89 man WTF are you talking about

In that case, only citizens from real countries are allowed to have an opinion

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Inabon

ermn panama does not have an army since 89 man WTF are you talking about


thats probably the money spent by USA leaving bases behind.

anyways

there were no WMD in IRAQ period.

only oil.

Then what were all those Kurds killed with?

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Timon

In that case, only citizens from real countries are allowed to have an opinion

hahaha only because you have an army guess what my passport is the same color as mikes and with the same eagle

so i guess i am a citizen of a true country

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

Then what were all those Kurds killed with?

exactly he ran out a looooong time ago but usa did not invade then. only when they went in kwait


please mike it will be the never ending story.

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Inabon

exactly he ran out a looooong time ago but usa did not invade then. only when they went in kwait


please mike it will be the never ending story.

If only you were in the White House a few years advising Bush that "Saddam ran out of WMDs"

[Timon]

Originally Posted by Inabon

so i guess i am a citizen of a true country

Not really but there are too many septics on this board to go there

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

If only you were in the White House a few years advising Bush that "Saddam ran out of WMDs"

we would not have had a war

[Inabon]

Originally Posted by Timon

Not really but there are too many septics on this board to go there

haha hey it is not me who goes around giving citizenship to every invaded or adquired territory you can thank another war for that

WWII thats when we got our automatic citizenship in Puerto Rico so that we could go to war too

[softball]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

Bush is doing what he is doing for one reason only:
USA is now only ONE superpower...the collapse of the Soviet Union has created imbalance in the world.

This is an interesting thread. Now that Russia is flexing its muscles, claiming the north pole and the passage, developing the most sophisticated fighters on the planet, and will soon be holding Europe as energy hostages. The war in Iraq is lost. The Iranians and Iraqis are becoming friends. The liberals are on the ascendancy and the right wing is in the gutter. In such a short period of time. I thought it was worth bumping and a re read.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

This is an interesting thread. Now that Russia is flexing its muscles, claiming the north pole and the passage, developing the most sophisticated fighters on the planet, and will soon be holding Europe as energy hostages. The war in Iraq is lost. The Iranians and Iraqis are becoming friends. The liberals are on the ascendancy and the right wing is in the gutter. In such a short period of time. I thought it was worth bumping and a re read.

Hey buddy. Long time no see.
Anyways ... there's no winning Iraq.
It was about oil and today I paid $3.61 a gallon at my local station.
Sure wasn't a win for me. For Chevron ... Mobil ... maybe. Not for me and not for the US.
Not for Iraqi people. It just all sucks.

Like I used to point out over at AM. We raped the bitch (Iraq).
Now we thing we gotta keep raping her till she likes it.
That's what it's all about. We can't leave because we're afraid she (Iraq)
will file charges.

But hey ... Iraq is old news.
Gen. Fallon quit the other day.
We're going into Iran by Nov.
Gonna make Iraq look like it really was a cakewalk.
Can't say I look forward to telling everyone 'I told you so!'
two years ago now.

Anyway ... about those liberals in ascendancy .... looking around ....
Where? Who?

Neo-libs maybe.

You know the differance between a neo-lib and a neo-con?

Like George Wallace used to say from right ...
and I say this sincerely now from the left ...
'about a nickel.' Or ... in today's inflated economy ...
'a couple of million bucks'.

Off with the two heads of the fascist dragon of the corporate duopoly!
Vote Nader.

The times have changed, but the song's the same.
Don't get fooled again.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rabble

Hey buddy. Long time no see.
Anyways ... there's no winning Iraq.
It was about oil and today I paid $3.61 a gallon at my local station.
Sure wasn't a win for me. For Chevron ... Mobil ... maybe. Not for me and not for the US.
Not for Iraqi people. It just all sucks.

Like I usw to point out over at AM. We raped the bitch (Iraq).
Now we thing we gotta keep raping de bitch till she likes it.
That's what it's all about.

But hey ... Iraq is old news.
Gen. Fallon quit the other day.
We're going into Iran by Nov.
Gonna make Iraq look like it really was a cakewalk.
Can't say I look forward to telling everyone 'I told you so!'
two years ago now.

Anyway ... about those liberals in ascendancy .... looking around ....
Where? Who?

RABBLE!
How ya been?

[rabble]

Originally Posted by gonzo

RABBLE!
How ya been?

I've been good GONZO.
Couldn't see myself taking up residence at Rude.

Been taking it easy.
Switching my system over to and learning Linux.
Freakin' glad winter is almost over here in Ohio.

Good to see ya.

[softball]

Originally Posted by rabble

Hey buddy. Long time no see.
Anyways ... there's no winning Iraq.
It was about oil and today I paid $3.61 a gallon at my local station.
Sure wasn't a win for me. For Chevron ... Mobil ... maybe. Not for me and not for the US.
Not for Iraqi people. It just all sucks.

Like I used to point out over at AM. We raped the bitch (Iraq).
Now we thing we gotta keep raping her till she likes it.
That's what it's all about. We can't leave because we're afraid she (Iraq)
will file charges.

But hey ... Iraq is old news.
Gen. Fallon quit the other day.
We're going into Iran by Nov.
Gonna make Iraq look like it really was a cakewalk.
Can't say I look forward to telling everyone 'I told you so!'
two years ago now.

Anyway ... about those liberals in ascendancy .... looking around ....
Where? Who?

Neo-libs maybe.

You know the differance between a neo-lib and a neo-con?

Like George Wallace used to say from right ...
and I say this sincerely now from the left ...
'about a nickel.' Or ... in today's inflated economy ...
'a couple of million bucks'.

Off with the two heads of the fascist dragon of the corporate duopoly!
Vote Nader.

The times have changed, but the song's the same.
Don't get fooled again.

Dude, glad to see you again. Now we just need a couple of those other guys here and we are good to go. Can't say as I agree with the above because the Russians are the ones that are really on the ascendancy and that is dangerous. I know this because i lived in Moscow for three fucking years and the one thing I learned is never, ever trust a Russian. Putin is out to put us in our place for the humiliation that Reagan caused. I have been in the Kremlin. I have walked the corridors lined with the chess sets that were given as gifts to Andrey Gromeyko, and the one thing that I have learned from all of this is that Russians are dangerous. Now having said that, I note that earlier in this thread it was said that the only super power in the world is the US. I am sorry to say, that the Russians would beg to disagree. Unless we collectively turn our attention to dealing with them and get the fuck out of Iraq, we will all pay the price. Isn't it interesting how the world has changed in a few short years since these whippo right wing radicals posted this shit on this board. The stupidity of man never ceases to amaze me. Nice to see you again.

[WebBilling.com]

What a retrospective......

[softball]

Its interesting to see how things shook down. There were an awful lot of very naive "experts" posting some really dumb opinions. Being a successful porn guy certainly does not qualify you as an insightful politico. But their internet success gave them a platform to fire off their parochial opinions. And that is how the worst president in the history of the United States was able to gain and maintain power. He trashed and entire country in less than eight years. Breath taking really.