There Are No Words...

[Carrie]

From http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nm/mayhem_dc_1

He then offered to show reporters the dead bodies of a man in a wheelchair, a young man who he said he dragged inside just hours earlier, and the limp forms of two infants, one just four months old, the other six months old.

"They died right here, in America, waiting for food," Fouchea said

and...

Sitting with her daughter and other relatives, Trolkyn Joseph, 37, said men had wandered the cavernous convention center in recent nights raping and murdering children.

She said she found a dead 14-year old girl at 5 a.m. on Friday morning, four hours after the young girl went missing from her parents inside the convention center.

"She was raped for four hours until she was dead," Joseph said through tears. "Another child, a seven-year old boy was found raped and murdered in the kitchen freezer last night."

I have a 7yr old, a 5yr old, and a 1yr old.
There just are no words...

[CuriousToyBoy]

That is just so far beyond fucked up what can you say ?

[Raven]

America is my adopted country.

This is not one of those times when I am proud to have been taken in by this country, whose current behaviour during this horrid disaster is so atrocious.

[Weg Cory]

Originally Posted by Raven

America is my adopted country.

This is not one of those times when I am proud to have been taken in by this country, whose current behaviour during this horrid disaster is so atrocious.

I love how so many supported not helping them because of a few people with guns. They used it so make sweeping generalizations about New Orleans, now likely 10,000 people are dead.

In contrast, once the military moved in, they confirmed what reporters were saying all along, they just needed help. Of course there were risk in moving in. Of course there is crime. Would they not move into Los Angeles after a quake? You think a some people would act lawless?

Funny, everyone had to focus on the looting. Last night, it was reported that officials needed more footage of people dying and that the focus on looting was actually counterproductive.

I am from Louisiana but I would not care where in the world this was happening, I would be so dissapointed.

How on earth is Harry Conick Jr and a Photojournalist for NBC walking around the convention center unscathed yet we couldn't get any military help in?

[Raven]

There's a thread on Netpond, comparing this to Hurricane Andrew...and how all of our troops are in Iraq, so there just aren't enough here in the States..and mobilising them takes longer and all we're seeing is sensationalistic media about the raping, plundering and pillaging...AS IF anyone has real proof of anything at this point.

I simply cannot wrap myself around the concept that we have no troops Stateside.

This country had plenty of warning. How can it be that mobilisation and preparation was impossible?

Categorically, it's been stated that even a Cat 3 hurricane would devastate a city that lives below sea level.

Listening to the Mayor from NO yesterday painted a much clearer picture for me...Reading DirectNic's blog painted a pretty clear picture for me.

Our response to the Tsunami was faster and more efficient than this.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Weg Cory

How on earth is Harry Conick Jr and a Photojournalist for NBC walking around the convention center unscathed yet we couldn't get any military help in?

Very good question... I do not think it was the military holding back, I´m sure they can be deployed within hours to almost any place in the USA, and within days to the rest of the world.

Anyone know, if there are any other people/institutions but the Governor or the President that can decide that the military needs to be activated?

[Weg Cory]

Originally Posted by Raven

There's a thread on Netpond, comparing this to Hurricane Andrew...and how all of our troops are in Iraq, so there just aren't enough here in the States..and mobilising them takes longer and all we're seeing is sensationalistic media about the raping, plundering and pillaging...AS IF anyone has real proof of anything at this point.

I simply cannot wrap myself around the concept that we have no troops Stateside.

This country had plenty of warning. How can it be that mobilisation and preparation was impossible?

Categorically, it's been stated that even a Cat 3 hurricane would devastate a city that lives below sea level.

Listening to the Mayor from NO yesterday painted a much clearer picture for me...Reading DirectNic's blog painted a pretty clear picture for me.

Our response to the Tsunami was faster and more efficient than this.

I was living in Baton Rouge during Hurricane George, which for those of that may not recall, shifted path from New Orleans.

When you hear the media proclaim that a hurricane hitting NO would be the worst disaster in the country, it is true. That was well publicised in the region.

Now, lets wait until all the "Gov can do no wrong and the negroes are bad people" group swaggers in.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Rolo

Very good question... I do not think it was the military holding back, I´m sure they can be deployed within hours to almost any place in the USA, and within days to the rest of the world.

Anyone know, if there are any other people/institutions but the Governor or the President that can decide that the military needs to be activated?

My husband, when he was in the Army....and I admit this was a long time ago, was on call constantly, no matter where he was stationed...whether it was for a potential 'action' somewhere in the world....or a disaster waiting to occur in the States.

Since the President is the ultimate head of state and the Commander in Chief, one would think he'd be apprised of the information available....such as topography, path of hurricane....statistics...the fact that Louisianna has been hit before...that NO is beneath sea level....I believe they are called advisors....

I also know that phone service works between the White House staff and government agencies and Mr. Bush's vacation house.....communications have come a long way...

I also realise I'm being a bit sarcastic and it's not directed at you....

But, damn it....We had notice. Enough notice to get something, anything prepared for this. I'm not a meteorologist...and, even I knew Katrina was going to hit the Gulf. Tracking hurricanes is far more sophisticated, these days, than ever before.

[sarettah]

If even most of this is true:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0830/p01s02-ussc.html (article from Tuesday morning outlining what preparations had been made prior to the storm)

"FEMA, the federal disaster-response agency, moved its search-and-rescue teams - as well as stockpiles of ice, water, and food - as close as safety would permit."

"Such early deployment of relief is unusual in disaster-aid work. But damage projections had been so severe - and New Orleans deemed so vulnerable in its dependence on a network of levees, canals, and pumps to keep dry - that President Bush on Saturday went ahead and declared an emergency in the states of Louisiana and Mississippi, allowing the Federal Emergency Management Agency to mobilize ahead of the storm."

"FEMA, meanwhile, had moved generators, ice, water, and food into the region for deployment after the storm. FEMA also brought in urban search and rescue teams from Tennessee, Missouri, and Texas, and set them up in Shreveport, La. Similar teams from Indiana and Ohio were staged in Meridian, Miss.

FEMA also deployed 18 disaster medical assistance teams to staging areas in Texas, Alabama, and Tennessee.

Louisiana deployed 3,500 Army National Guardsmen to help hurricane victims, and another 3,000 were on standby as of Monday morning, according to a Guard spokesman."

"The US Coast Guard shut down and evacuated its Gulf coast facilities, even as it sent more than 40 aircraft from the Eastern seaboard, and at least 30 small vessels, to the surrounding area. The units will be used for search-and-rescue operations and repairs of damaged waterways."


************************

Then there should have been no reason for it to take until Friday to get the shit in there.

[Dravyk]

As I posted in another thread, I saw a news report (think it was the CNN roundup but not sure) a few days ago where some idiot was holding on the reserves in Baton Rouge because "it was too dangerous to send them in"!!!

Of all the stupidest pieces of crap that's come out of this affair -- and there's been plenty of them -- that one floats at the top of the list!!!

I'd love to find that article again and see who said that, but there's too much info and changing info on the web right now for me to be able to find it again. It's also very possible the person who said that probably did without being named, as in "one high-goverment official" or something.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Then there should have been no reason for it to take until Friday to get the shit in there.

We were posting at the same time, Sare.

I suspect what you said above and what I said about the reserves might be connected. I'm not sure how or why, but I am sure a year from now when there's an investigation we're going to find out that troops, supplies, etc that were near by were held up. Be in lack of communication, lack of coordination, lack of leadership, or (I hope not) for reasons unknown that were purposeful.

[sarettah]

This is fine today, now that the National Guard has made it's presence felt. But keeping the Red Cross out earlier in the week, when the Guard was not going in themselves is wrong.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

Homeland Security won't let Red Cross deliver food
Saturday, September 03, 2005

As the National Guard delivered food to the New Orleans convention center yesterday, American Red Cross officials said that federal emergency management authorities would not allow them to do the same.

Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.

"The Homeland Security Department has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross.

"Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."

[MorganGrayson]

My father was career military. Growing up, I thought everybody's dad wore fatigues and combat boots. When I was young, he was full time National Guard. In 1968, he switched to the US Army and did the first of two tours in Vietnam.

He was always on call.
I remember sitting around the table by candlelight during the blackout of 1965...waiting. He was called in, he went, and the entire Connecticut National Guard was out to protect frightened people in the dark. He was also in downtown Hartford, CT, for the riots of 1965.

In the Army, he was frequently "on alert." Something somewhere would happen, and everyone got ready.

He was with the Army Corps of Engineers for a while, which gave him some of his greatest pleasure of his military career, because they built things. He was involved with building a school and a bridge. He was very, very proud of that.

To hear the US Military described as "not going in because it was too dangerous" would cause my father to have one of his loud, verbose shitfits.

[Carrie]

How on earth is Harry Conick Jr and a Photojournalist for NBC walking around the convention center unscathed yet we couldn't get any military help in?

That's what I'd like to know. The whole time no help was showing up, news crews were able to get in and out freely. Hell, Brian Williams was reporting from what looked like a roof right next to the Superdome, and that hispanic guy... can't remember his name... was reporting from the highway (I-10?) right next to it. Other reporters were out wandering the streets and going along in rescue boats that the residents were running.

Now, lets wait until all the "Gov can do no wrong and the negroes are bad people" group swaggers in.

Why you gotta take that route? This ain't a black/white thing, this is a people thing.

Then there should have been no reason for it to take until Friday to get the shit in there.

Damn straight. We all knew Sunday night that there were people in the Superdome, yet the head of FEMA says he didn't know until Thursday afternoon or so? Bullshit!! And if the reporter crews could come and go freely, then the FEMA guys could have as well.
And this shit with them purposely keeping the Red Cross out of there... something stinks. Badly.

It's going to all come down to Bush because he appointed these people, even though he did declare states of emergency very early so help could be waiting. I've heard he turned down physical (not monetary) help from other countries earlier this week. I want to know WHY. I want to know if those idiots heading up FEMA (that were too stupid to know there were people in the Dome) and Homeland Security (who kept getting on the radio and tv saying everything was going great) were feeding Bush the same line of bullshit they were TRYING to feed us. Apparently the state Governors down there were stringing along a pretty good line of bullshit as well. I read in one article that Cooper Anderson really took Gov. Barbour to task, caught somewhere between screaming and crying, when Barbour was trying to say the relief efforts were going along great and Anderson had just seen rats eating a dead woman's body in the streets.

Lots of folks are slamming on Nagin for his radio interview - which really shocked me - but I can sure see where he's coming from. We had the reporters right there showing us the true story, we had Buff & company blogging out the true story, then we had all those talking heads saying how great it was going... bullshit. The Mayor had every right to be pissed and upset. Yeah, there were things he could've done (and should've done) beforehand to help be prepared, but once it was over where was his help? Nowhere to be found. His governor's out there blowing smoke up people's asses and his city is falling apart.

There's a real big smell around this. Almost like it's some kind of purposely engineered experiment. If it's not that, then it's definitely a bunch of people trying desperately to keep their asses looking and smelling rosy while thinking we're too fucking stupid to believe the live videos coming out of the disaster areas.

[Carrie]

"Lots of folks are slamming on Nagin for his radio interview - which really shocked me "
Clarification - it shocked me that people were slamming him afterward. What he said didn't shock me at all; it was the bare truth.

[Newton]

It was interesting watching the news today in the UK, with reporters on the ground there asking the army why they could get in and food/water/medical supplies couldnt .. They also showed that the french quarter wasnt touched and no looting had been done for the tourist areas for paintings and the like as looters were after food not art. The best of all showing the bits cnn had banned from being aired which showed Mike Myers and some rapper reading from an autocue offscreen .. everything was fine until this rapper decided he wasnt going to read the autocue and started saying "bush hates the black people" and i dont believe this was shown more than once in the US before censorship kicked in ..

[Rolo]

Here is a timeline of the tsunami in December: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4154791.stm - highlights:

day 2: aid starts to arrive and being distributed
day 2: tourists start to arrive in their home countries
day 5: aid is arriving in the worst-hit areas

Now the USA and Asia can not be compared when it comes to infrastructure or technology available. Also we are talking about very different climates, size of disaster area, and type of disaster (I think the water retrieved much quicker in the tsunami + many of the areas hit were "low tech" areas with fewer dangers to those who did the search and rescue).

But it clearly makes you wonder why this situation - inside the US borders - would take so long...

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Newton

everything was fine until this rapper decided he wasnt going to read the autocue and started saying "bush hates the black people" and i dont believe this was shown more than once in the US before censorship kicked in ..

They've been playing it over and over again today on the radio news.
I can see why they cut it off or switched cameras or whatever during the telathon - that's not what they were there for. He wants to say that stuff, he can go preach it elsewhere, they were trying to raise money.

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Rolo

But it clearly makes you wonder why this situation - inside the US borders - would take so long...

Especially when there was so much warning and the states involved had already been proclaimed emergency disaster areas by the President before the storm even hit, which meant FEMA could get ready and the state governors could mobilize their local Guard.

Did the governor of LA not mobilize the troops at her disposal before the storm? Haven't seen details on when she called what/whom into action.

[*KK*]

Oh please, the federal government handled this situation about as well as the average kindergarten class would have. Everything they've touched, they've fucked up. Letting FEMA make decisions about what should be used to do what and setting the priority lists for action only made the situation worse. Ray Nagin is livid over the whoe disaster, and with very good reason. Working on the levee breaks on Tuesday as a top priority would have saved thousands of homes and millions in damage.

I lived in New Orleans for two years, and when you hear that something like this could happen, yeah, you shrug it off and go on with your day.

I cannot for the live of me imagine how those people are even getting by day to day. You take 100 degrees, near 100 percent humidity, then add 8-20 feet of water where there's usually not any, then you toss in an understaffed and overwhelmed police department, no apparent relief from outside in the form of troops until its so far past the necessary point that you end up with a complete breakdown in civility.

What's so hard to understand here, Lord of the Flies isn't that long of a read.

[JR]

Originally Posted by *KK*

Oh please, the federal government handled this situation about as well as the average kindergarten class would have. Everything they've touched, they've fucked up. Letting FEMA make decisions about what should be used to do what and setting the priority lists for action only made the situation worse. Ray Nagin is livid over the whoe disaster, and with very good reason. Working on the levee breaks on Tuesday as a top priority would have saved thousands of homes and millions in damage.

I lived in New Orleans for two years, and when you hear that something like this could happen, yeah, you shrug it off and go on with your day.

I cannot for the live of me imagine how those people are even getting by day to day. You take 100 degrees, near 100 percent humidity, then add 8-20 feet of water where there's usually not any, then you toss in an understaffed and overwhelmed police department, no apparent relief from outside in the form of troops until its so far past the necessary point that you end up with a complete breakdown in civility.

What's so hard to understand here, Lord of the Flies isn't that long of a read.

i was really struck by the logic of pulling national guard troops "because its too dangerous" as that seems to imply that as time progressed and the situation continued to erode, it would become somehow, less dangerous.

[Rolo]

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/n....1f974ad6.html

Paperwork!!!!

How come only a politician would wait for paperwork to arrive, before taking action? Yes, lets also be angry with Washington, but how can a Governor accept 4 days with no reply!

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Rolo

http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/n....1f974ad6.html

Paperwork!!!!

How come only a politician would wait for paperwork to arrive, before taking action? Yes, lets also be angry with Washington, but how can a Governor accept 4 days with no reply!

My head hurts!

[Hell Puppy]

This has been one of the top 3, often the number 1, disaster scenario projected for the U.S. for years and years. FEMA supposedly "practiced" it just last year. And this is the best they can do?

I dont have my opinion given to me by the media. And although I'm reluctant to pass judgement from the safety of my cool, dry house in the suburbs at halftime during a football game, I'm also a results guy. Looking at the results here, you fire the heads of FEMA and re-organize the whole thing.

I think the big failure here is to have the imagination and foresight to see what would really happen, especially from a people standpoint, when the water came in. They missed some obvious points:

1) Complete communications breakdown. We're reliant on cell towers for communications now, even for emergency response agencies such as police. Cell towers have battery backup and generators. But the big miss here is what happens when you cant get to those towers to gas 'em up? The result is complete loss of command and control due to total communications breakdown.

2) No communications to the survivors. Did they think they'd still be able to hear emergency broadcasts on TV and radio? Apparently. Stupid stuff here, you need helicopters with P.A.'s to let people know what to do and where to go.

3) The city is underwater, you need transportation plans that dont involve ground transportation. It could be worse, what if you couldn't get buses to the Superdome? This was obviously not thought about.

4) Total lack of preparedness to deal with panic stricken public. In a disaster of this scope and size, people go native, survival instincts override civility. As they get more hungry and desperate more and more civility is stripped away.

The reality here is this isn't a race issue, political issue or anything like that, no matter what the media tries to paint. What has happened here is as a country we've had our first real test of FEMA and they've failed miserably.

[Nickatilynx]

I'm sorry but I think the response of the military was ummm gay.

Why didn't they start helicoptering in water..loading some hercules and parachuting in supplies.

Having a platoon of soldiers patrolling a given area , say 6 city blocks (isn't there the equivelent of 6 divisions deployed ?

Why not one rapid response unit of 100 men to both the conference and astrodome.Aren't they suppopsed to be able to reach anywhere within 6 hours?

they could come in rough , nasty , "we ain't taking no shit , sit down shut up and we will take care of you".."oh and son , drop that weapon or I'll shove it up yr ass and fire it.."

What happened with Army engineers breaching gaps in bridges etc.

Why wasn't inteligence spreading false unattribuatable rumours.

Looters being shot.
Martial law in force , summary executions of violent criminals.

Scare them into line.

[nlphoto]

Originally Posted by Carrie

They've been playing it over and over again today on the radio news.
I can see why they cut it off or switched cameras or whatever during the telathon - that's not what they were there for. He wants to say that stuff, he can go preach it elsewhere, they were trying to raise money.

And whether or not anyone wants to think about it, this comment however it
was intended (pointing out racism, injustice)... the net result was that there
were likely thousands of people that had their telephone in their hands, dialing
in and simply said "Fuck off, you asshole..." and hung up...

Forgive me diction nazi... the grammer there was not the best...

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by nlphoto

And whether or not anyone wants to think about it, this comment however it
was intended (pointing out racism, injustice)... the net result was that there
were likely thousands of people that had their telephone in their hands, dialing
in and simply said "Fuck off, you asshole..." and hung up...

Forgive me diction nazi... the grammer there was not the best...

Always forgiven.

The aim is always effective communication, by the way...not impressing your high school English teacher. You communicated...and you're most likely correct. Emotions were very high...and it only takes a drop of gasoline poured on the fire....

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by JR

i was really struck by the logic of pulling national guard troops "because its too dangerous" as that seems to imply that as time progressed and the situation continued to erode, it would become somehow, less dangerous.

So, Iraq is not too dangerous to send troops into?

[CuriousToyBoy]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

To hear the US Military described as "not going in because it was too dangerous" would cause my father to have one of his loud, verbose shitfits.

A nice moment of levity in an otherwise all too serious thread.

Cheers for an excellent visual.

;-)

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

I'm sorry but I think the response of the military was ummm gay.

Why didn't they start helicoptering in water..loading some hercules and parachuting in supplies.

Having a platoon of soldiers patrolling a given area , say 6 city blocks (isn't there the equivelent of 6 divisions deployed ?

Why not one rapid response unit of 100 men to both the conference and astrodome.Aren't they suppopsed to be able to reach anywhere within 6 hours?

Precisely!!

They are near, in, by swamps. They are off the Mississippi and the lake. How the hell did all of a sudden everything from boats, coast guard boats off the delta, rafts with motorboards, pontoons, hovercraft and those big things with the huge fans on the back they use in the swamps -- And all that stuff suddenly not exist anymore????

And as you said, parachuting. They couldn't parachute down humdees, ATVs, whatever and troops with them? We have helicopters with night vision ... We can do all this amazing shit ... We can send Seals in at night to somewhere abroad. We can send paratroopers into Iraq. Delta force into the mountains of Afganistan ... but we can't do fuck-all in our own damned country?!?!?!

Sorry. I am so utterly livid I don't even know how to express myself without cursing a blue streak right now. The incompentance has exceeded all bounds and hyperbole.

[Peaches]

Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy

[Carrie]

Just got this ICQ from Dad, who's watching Fox:
"By the way a reporter fron CNN was on FOX (a friend of Gretta's) her cousin was in Dome and the guy that raped and killed the seven year old was caught by ten men and beaten to death."
...a moment later, he says
"They should have hung him over the entrance with a sign of warning on him"

I love my Dad.

[Weg Cory]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy

Peaches,

Normally, I would back off, but I am having a hard time understanding how you can't see the screw up on this one. I agree wholeheartedly with Nick. Being from there, it has been well-known what would happen if a hurricane like that hit.

I will give leeway to the other issues that seem obvious to me...you support Iraq, don't you think we should fight for our own?

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Weg Cory

Peaches,

Normally, I would back off, but I am having a hard time understanding how you can't see the screw up on this one. I agree wholeheartedly with Nick. Being from there, it has been well-known what would happen if a hurricane like that hit.

I will give leeway to the other issues that seem obvious to me...you support Iraq, don't you think we should fight for our own?

We ARE fighting for our own. As I said on other boards, we have more than enough in our active military, guard and reserves to work both here and in Irag. Were we late getting in there? Yes. What broke down? I don't know but I suspect it was a multitude of errors - not just one, probably not just 10 either. And it could be months before we find out.

This is an unprecedented disaster in American history. There was no drill that ever put something this horrible into test circumstances. It's all very easy for us to sit in the comfort of our air conditioned homes and point fingers, but in reality, we don't know what broke down, how, when or where and I'm damned sure I wouldn't have done a better job with such a monstrosity.

People made mistakes. And they will be held accountable for their mistakes. But to act like we would have everything under control or know who should have done what and when is just nothing short of hindsight being 20/20.

[Weg Cory]

Originally Posted by Peaches

We ARE fighting for our own. As I said on other boards, we have more than enough in our active military, guard and reserves to work both here and in Irag. Were we late getting in there? Yes. What broke down? I don't know but I suspect it was a multitude of errors - not just one, probably not just 10 either. And it could be months before we find out.

This is an unprecedented disaster in American history. There was no drill that ever put something this horrible into test circumstances. It's all very easy for us to sit in the comfort of our air conditioned homes and point fingers, but in reality, we don't know what broke down, how, when or where and I'm damned sure I wouldn't have done a better job with such a monstrosity.

People made mistakes. And they will be held accountable for their mistakes. But to act like we would have everything under control or know who should have done what and when is just nothing short of hindsight being 20/20.

Unprecedented yet expected. No drills? We knew it was coming. Peaches, look at my post prior to the event, I told you it would be this bad. I am sure all NO residents knew this.

You say mistakes are made, the people in this thread said it was a Gov fault. If they are wrong, then who made the "mistakes" we all agree happened?

Damn, there are dead bodies lying around with death notes stuck to their hands. I don't care about Iraq, I am not going tto argue it and never really do on boards. This is different.

I am not impying you do not care, we all do. Kindly debating.

[Peaches]

Don't argue with me - I'll steal your little dogs

[Weg Cory]

Chopper just bit Chloe over a greenie.

There may need to be a rescue mission.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

So, Iraq is not too dangerous to send troops into?

i am not sure what you mean. i meant that it seemed a little odd to use the rationale that NO is too dangerous to help people when the situation is obviously deteriorating by the second.... i.e., not giving people food, water, medical care etc is not a formula to make it more stable and less dangerous.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by JR

i am not sure what you mean. i meant that it seemed a little odd to use the rationale that NO is too dangerous to help people when the situation is obviously deteriorating by the second.... i.e., not giving people food, water, medical care etc is not a formula to make it more stable and less dangerous.

JR, some fucktard (not sure who, but definitely not a military guy, either a pol or a bureaucrat) said somewhere in the press that they were holding back the Reserve in Baton Rouge (at the time) because he said "it was too dangerous to send them in".

This was a few days ago when they had 4,000 amassed there and no was sending them in yet, and that was allegedly the (cough, choke, spew) "rationale" behind it.

Wish I could find that damned article, but read too many over the past week to recall where I'd read it.

[Dravyk]

Though tons of places to put blame ... Here's some more from the White House's part in this ...

"Bush had the legal authority to order the National Guard to the disaster area himself, as he did after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks . But the troops four years ago were deployed for national security protection, and presidents of both parties traditionally defer to governors to deploy their own National Guardsmen and request help from other states when it comes to natural disasters."

and

"In addition to Guard help, the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service. The CRAF provision has been activated twice, once for the Persian Gulf War and again for the Iraq war."

[PornoDoggy]

Peaches, I have to agree with Cory - you are crossing the line from putting a positive spin on bad circumstances on this one - you've gone into denial.

We ARE fighting for our own. As I said on other boards, we have more than enough in our active military, guard and reserves to work both here and in Irag.

You are wrong. Very, very wrong.

As long as 60% or better of the forces required to go to war are part-time members of the United States Military, we do not under any circumstances have enough.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Peaches, I have to agree with Cory - you are crossing the line from putting a positive spin on bad circumstances on this one - you've gone into denial.



You are wrong. Very, very wrong.

As long as 60% or better of the forces required to go to war are part-time members of the United States Military, we do not under any circumstances have enough.

There are 21K reserves and 4K active there right now with more available to go. In addition many of the places the refugees are being transported to are military reserve bases where they will be taken care of by even more military members. We are using military transport to help evacuate and to deliver food and water. How much do you consider "enough" and what duties do you want them to perform that we don't have them there performing?

[Peaches]

My numbers were off - it seems there are currentlyu 40K members of the military in NOLA currently. And people are STILL refusing to evacuate.

[Rolo]

The damage have been done - to both the people who needed help, but also to the public image of how the goverment works. Not one million soldiers will change that.

Given the heat in the area then an adult will die within 3-4 days without water, but can live weeks without food... however children, sick people and elderly people have much much lower resistance. Also we are constant surrounded by bacteria and vira, and once the sanitary system breaks down, then cities becomes death traps.

Then you got the human factor of thugs who will use the chaos to do their evil, which not only hurt and possibly kill innocent people, but also adds more stress to those who are trying to survive, which will hurt their immune system and their survival focus.

Bottomline the chances of surviving will lower every hour without help, and once the crises have been going on for more than 2 days, then people will die from the after effects. That is why this incompetent mismanagement will not be solved by even one million soldiers arriving days later - they should have been there within hours!

[Dravyk]

Well said, Rolo.

[*KK*]

Originally Posted by JR

i was really struck by the logic of pulling national guard troops "because its too dangerous" as that seems to imply that as time progressed and the situation continued to erode, it would become somehow, less dangerous.

No argument from me at all. You're spot on.

As for the people that still refuse to leave, where the hell are they going to go? If you think that Houston, Baton Rouge or any other city wants a bunch of poor, homeless, uneducated people filling their streets, that's just totally unrealistic.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by *KK*

No argument from me at all. You're spot on.

As for the people that still refuse to leave, where the hell are they going to go? If you think that Houston, Baton Rouge or any other city wants a bunch of poor, homeless, uneducated people filling their streets, that's just totally unrealistic.

Not only that, Kimmy. There's a lot of serious sick people (physically I mean) basically trapped in their homes and without medicine. Relatives can't get into town and rescue agencies are ignoring their calls. Only CNN listened and said, we'll get back to you on Tuesday, it's a holiday weekend.

If they're not out walking the streets, they apparently do not exist.

And supposedly goverment officials and (sigh) the media are playing things up (last I heard) that because the Dome has been evacuated, the all of NO has been evacuated too. Which isn't the case. And a lot of those people in their homes aren't even necessarily the impoverished.

A lot are middle class elderly who could handle themselves alright when there was a city around them, the grocer boy down the street to deliver food, the pharmacy down the block to give them their medicines, etc.

Here for details, compliments of InterCosmos: http://www.livejournal.com/users/int...80.html#cutid1

[urb]

Just heard from a friend's sister who lives in NO.

The water is going down, but they have alligators swimming around outside eating dead bodies?!?!?!



https://give.redcross.org/