They have pussified basic training

[TheEnforcer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/na...6training.html

Kenneth Dickerman for The New York TimesFORT KNOX, Ky. - Staff Sgt. Michael G. Rhoades, until recently a driller of Army recruits at Fort Knox, says he was only doing his job, hammering civilians into soldiers who would not crack under the pressures of war.


Sergeant Rhoades's methods, investigators said, included punching a recruit in the stomach and hitting him repeatedly in the chest, and throwing another to the floor and calling him a "fat nasty."


Years ago such accusations, if privates dared to voice them, might have led to no more than a reprimand or a transfer for a drill sergeant.

But Sergeant Rhoades, a 16-year veteran, was court-martialed in May and found guilty of cruelty and impeding an investigation. He was ordered dishonorably discharged. Two other drill sergeants in his unit were demoted for mistreating recruits, and a fourth is awaiting court-martial. Their captain is serving six months in prison for dereliction of duty.

Sergeant Rhoades says he is being punished unfairly for techniques that have long been part of basic training. "It's commonly known that all drill sergeants work in the gray area," he said. "If you don't, you aren't doing your job."

Pentagon leaders reject the notion that training is aided by humiliation and hazing. And now, as the military struggles during wartime to fill its ranks, commanders appear to be more sensitive than ever to accusations of abuse.
===========================================

Unfreaking believeable. They have totally pussified boot camp. They don't even do "mount mother fucker" anymore Marine Corps boot camp at San Diego. Christ, they even have a passage about a guy who got a pass on the monkey bars because of blisters on his hands!! Christ, I rope burned the skin right off of both hands on the very first obstacle of a very long O course and just kept on going and climbed ropes and did all sorts of other shit that made my hands feel like they were poured with gasoline and set on fire. Bending and thrusting correction actions were as common as speech and rough treatment certainly happened.

This new training makes me want to puke!

[Bhelliom]

Having been in the army in canada its gotten even worse.... we can't be made to do pushups outside specified PT times unless the seargent does them with us... no swearing .. all PC shit now.

When I joined I was HOPING for full metal jacket kind of stuff but alas, nothing even close.

Its a shame really that people who shouldn't really be doing things like that get in and then try to change the way its been done for, well, ever.

I personally believe that the harcore training like that is necessary and helps to build teams and camaraderie. This is especially important in the military where you depend on the guy next to you to save your life.

as for the physical stuff. that's nothing compared to being shot at. or shot period.

[PornoDoggy]

I hear a bunch of old men bitching about how kids just don't have it as tough as we did.

[Bhelliom]

how old do you think I am?

God just turn 25 and already with the old comments... damnit... now I have to go in a corner and cry

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I hear a bunch of old men bitching about how kids just don't have it as tough as we did.

Yeah, but it's TRUE though!!

[PornoDoggy]

Not really.

The services found out a long time ago that the sort of conduct that got this guy in trouble really doesn't contribute to the ultimate goal - turning a civilian into a soldier/sailor/airman/marine.

When you get right down to it, I'd bet that what got his ass a DD is the "impeding an investigation." Seems like something was pretty rotten in that command, with a couple of others in trouble and the Captain in the brig.

The bean counters are part of the reason for "a pass on the monkey bars because of blisters" - the DoD did a crackdown on pushing people's limits too far while I was in recruting (78-82) because they were discharging a shitpot full of people with disability benefits right out of bootcamp.

It's a different world. What worked on the draftees of WWII and Korea didn't work on the draftees for 'Nam. The methods that worked back then won't work on the all-volunteer services of today.

[Evil Chris]

I have heard similar things happening in the Canadian military. Coed barracks (more like condos) now, and just a whole new set of "can't do this to them" rules now.

Recruits appear to have rights they never used to have. I'd agree that physical contact (ie. punching, or hitting with pace sticks) is wrong. However, I did my basic training in Cornwallis, Nova Scotia back in 1983, and it was fucking rough. Example... I doubt that standing the troops outside in the freezing rain (in work-dress uniform) for over an hour would be acceptable in this day and age.

Basic was almost as rough as the combat leadership training I did in 1993. Toughest shit I have ever been through both mentally and physically in my entire life.

[Bhelliom]

Originally Posted by Evil Chris

I have heard similar things happening in the Canadian military. Coed barracks (more like condos) now, and just a whole new set of "can't do this to them" rules now.

Recruits appear to have rights they never used to have. I'd agree that physical contact (ie. punching, or hitting with pace sticks) is wrong. However, I did my basic training in Cornwallis, Nova Scotia back in 1983, and it was fucking rough. Example... I doubt that standing the troops outside in the freezing rain (in work-dress uniform) for over an hour would be acceptable in this day and age.

Basic was almost as rough as the combat leadership training I did in 1993. Toughest shit I have ever been through both mentally and physically in my entire life.

Chris I was referring to the canadian army as i'm canadian. However, I joined in 98 and was in until '02. I can say for a fact that when i tell stories of what I did in the army to new recruits they tell me they don't do that anymore. so its definitely getting easier.

As for the Co-ed barracks, that part is also true, and has led to many stories coming to me (from both the men and women) of well, good and bad things.

[sextoyking]

The Drill Sgt's and others in the chain got what they deserved.

They haven't "allowed" physical abuse of trainees in so many years. When I went through basic / ait in 1986 (Ft. Sill, Ok), I don't remember any pvt. getting touched, hit, etc. Worst you would ever get treated is a few bad names here and there.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Not really.

The services found out a long time ago that the sort of conduct that got this guy in trouble really doesn't contribute to the ultimate goal - turning a civilian into a soldier/sailor/airman/marine.

When you get right down to it, I'd bet that what got his ass a DD is the "impeding an investigation." Seems like something was pretty rotten in that command, with a couple of others in trouble and the Captain in the brig.

The bean counters are part of the reason for "a pass on the monkey bars because of blisters" - the DoD did a crackdown on pushing people's limits too far while I was in recruting (78-82) because they were discharging a shitpot full of people with disability benefits right out of bootcamp.

It's a different world. What worked on the draftees of WWII and Korea didn't work on the draftees for 'Nam. The methods that worked back then won't work on the all-volunteer services of today.

You've gone soft!!

[Dravyk]

TE, too bad it wasn't naval boot camp with sharks.

[RyanLanane]

Going to talk to a recruiter in 30 minutes ...

I am considering doing a stint and joining the reserves, I'm still not 100% sure but I need to get back in shape and start doing some new things with my life. If this feels right I may just go with it.

Going in... I would expect nothing less than throwing up from runnign so hard, my hands to be so callous at the end you could hold a lighter to them for two minutes and not feel it, and I would expect a drill Seargant to knock the shit out of me (literally) if I acted out of line. It's what makes a man.. a man

Seriously.. some things are just not talked about, and should be in the 'gray area' and this is one of them.. No offense intended but it is only going to get worse with more women joining the military. Not a direct relation as in women complaining but it changed the environment.

No.. I have no problem with women serving our country.. I just think it is a delicate issue that will make things like this start to occur. To be honest, this man that has now been court martialed has probably trained some of the men in the Mid East right now who have saved many different people's lives during their tour due to the extreme training they get.

War isn't a god damn cake walk - Training for it shouldn't be either. More and more, people who join the army are NOT doing it to fight for their country or to be prepared to fight for their country if they are ever needed. They are doing it quite simply to get the money - period. They are praying that they never see combat when they join..

Just my opinion, but the changes we have seen in morals from the 50's to these days directly correlates with the change in the Military.

Flame away...

[MorganGrayson]

Ryan...no flames here. My father was career Army. Spent two years in a small, southeast Asian country. He died of cancer of the everything. According to his government, that little chemical they hosed over the country to deforest it had *nothing* to do with it. Your post made him smile, I'm sure. (I've heard what he thought of the "all volunteer Army." It was...loud.)

[PornoDoggy]

Uhhh ... that's a buncha horseshit, Ryan.

The all-volunteer force doesn't have the time or the resources to spend on slackers who have to be knocked around to stay in line.

The changes in many of the policies (no physical "correction", etc.) started long before the radical increase in the number of women in the ranks. The changes were made because they were not found to be effective methods of training, and for no other reason. My grandfather told my Uncle that his training for WWII wasn't nearly as rough as his had been preparing for WWI. I heard the same thing from Master Chief Petty Officers who had gone through boot camp during the last two years of WWII, and E5s and E6s who had gone through it during 'Nam. To borrow a phrase from John Prine - "the faces change, the lines all stay the same."

People join the military for a wide variety of reasons. Some of the reasons people joined the calvary to fight Indians are the same as the reasons they join today - 3 hots and a cot/a paycheck/a better way of life.

If you think it's any different now than it's ever been - lay off the John Wayne movies, bro.

[RyanLanane]

PornoDoggy, let me ask you a question...

Who would you rather have taking you out of a terrorist camp ?

100 Soldiers from the regular Army
15 Soldiers who are Army Rangers / 15 Navy Seals / 15 Green Berets

I personally, would rahter know special forces were coming in after me then a whole shitload of regular soldiers. Why ? They have been put through the most extreme training, dealt with the most extreme situations, and have experience dealing with things that alot of regular soldiers will NEVER experience. No disrespect meant to regular soldiers by ANY MEANS as they are ballsy as hell every day they wake up and serve the country.

I think you get my point ... and how it correlates to the subject.

[sextoyking]

Ryan,

Good luck in whatever you decide. Since the reserves are being called up so much for Iraq, etc you mise well go active.

Good beni's for your kids, family and not so bad at all.

Basic Training, it's all the same pretty much in the army. All regulated, etc. Everyday morning Pt, then different classes, blocks of instructions, etc... Just alot of head games for 8 weeks, then Ait - School.

Once your at your PDS, it's easy pretty much. Still PT and all, but then you just train on your mos / company / battery in my case...

We are pretty maxed right now and need soldiers bad. I think you can get a nice signing bonus too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

PornoDoggy, let me ask you a question...

Who would you rather have taking you out of a terrorist camp ?

100 Soldiers from the regular Army
15 Soldiers who are Army Rangers / 15 Navy Seals / 15 Green Berets

I personally, would rahter know special forces were coming in after me then a whole shitload of regular soldiers. Why ? They have been put through the most extreme training, dealt with the most extreme situations, and have experience dealing with things that alot of regular soldiers will NEVER experience. No disrespect meant to regular soldiers by ANY MEANS as they are ballsy as hell every day they wake up and serve the country.

I think you get my point ... and how it correlates to the subject.

Your example holds no merit.

Special Forces has one overall use. For low intensity conflicts.

Infantry forces, like Soldiers and Marines are trained high intensity warfare.

Apples to Oranges.

Taking out a terroist camp = Low Intensity Conflict. You would use Special Forces/Seals/Rangers/Force Recon.

But you are getting ahead of yourself. Graduate from Boot Camp first, then you can go on and see if you even qualify for any elite forces. God only knows I tried for years.

[PornoDoggy]

Can't answer your question, because I don't know the tactical situation surrounding your hypothetical terrorist camp.

If you think that the 15 special ops guys could do anything that the 100 regular troops could do, you're either silly or naïve. When you get right down to it, those 15 sexy special ops guys have a couple of hundred regular ordinary folks risking their asses in one way or another just to put and keep them in the field - so it might be more efficient to have the regular troops do it.

Even assuming that I would want the sexy, cool special ops folks to rescue me - I'm not sure I'd want them with me on routine patrols through occupied territory. Not something they are tempermentally suited for.

The "beat them into line" stuff makes great movies (Officer and a Gentlemen comes to mind first, but there are dozens of others) - but that's all it is.

My last duty station was the Naval Amphib Base in Coronado - the West Coast SEAL training center. A drinking buddy of mine was on his third tour as an instructor, and - according to him - had never laid a hand on a trainee. Easier, more efficient and SMARTER to wash them out and send them back to the fleet, and concentrate his efforts on people who could handle the training program.

[RyanLanane]

Todd, yes there are ALOT of benefits.. And thank god my small legal problems over the years are non-issues since I have never had a felony. The benefits are tremendous, and yeah I would be in Iraq in 6 months from my signing date.. no if's, and's, or but's... I would be doing 2 one year tours if I sign on as it would be for four years... The more I look at it signing up as a reserve and full time are no different except the benefits my family and I would recieve far outweigh what I would get as a reservist.

4 Years of paid education at any state college when my four years are up, on top of the 'on the job training' I recieve while serving, plus they pay me $1500 a month while I go to school for up to four years. Which means I would be able to go to school without school loans, be able to have a part time job to make it by with the $1500 a month being tax free... And I would have the equity I have in my house now to put away while I am serving and hopefully get a nice return from it.

There's alot to think about though... my daughter is just getting ready to turn two Knowing I will basically be going over half of her life the next four years without seeing her at all is really messing with me more than anything else right now.. That would be the most difficult part of all of this.

No signup bonus was mentioned, but free education at any state college... Western, ISU, BRADLEY is even paid for if I choose to go there (15 minutes from my house now). On top of them paying for me to go I get $1500 a month every month as long as I am getting 12 semester hours in.. Equals out to about 70K of tax free money. If they offer a sign-on bonus on top of this I am amazed more young men aren't joining the forces especially when they don't have families to worry about.

Anthony, special forces are a good bit away (although that would be an incredible life)but I thought the recruiter was joking when he asked me if I could do 27 pushups in two minutes, LMFAO !!! I'm so out of shape it isn't funny and I just did 27 in what was seemingly 45 seconds or so... Then again, I didn't clock it...

[RyanLanane]

Might have been an apples and oranges situation I posted above. But the point remains... If you have a choice of

A) Being 10 miles behind 5,000 soldiers who were trained with 'etiquette' in mind and still have all the same basic training.

Being 10 miles behind 5,000 soldiers who were trained by the biggest fucking asshole Drill Seargent you have ever met in your life that would pull you up by the neck collar if you stopped running 80% of the way througha 20 mile walk... along with other 'unnecessary brutality'

Who would you pick then, and this is a perfect example of why I feel the way I do... If I sign, I expect to go through 20 times the pain I did in Hell Week my freshman year lol ... Just the way things are. You are joining the army to become a fighter.

Should we have seperate platoons? The ones who only went there for the benfits and the ones that fight like they are convicts escaping a jail and don't give a damn about dying? Which group would live longer if so ?

There's a reason that type of treatment is given, that's the bottom line. To prepare the men..

[PornoDoggy]

Ryan ... your questions alone suggest you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Are you saying that today's military can't fight because the training they go through doesn't meet your idea of what it should be? Upon what do you base this?

Little tip for you if you join the military - read the original article that TE posted. See that little sentence about a Captain in jail? That tells you all you need to know. The command had to be pretty fucked up, because Captains get letters in their records - they don't go to jail.

Quite frankly, did you ever stop to think about what happens to soldiers who need an ass-kicking to get motivated when the "biggest fucking asshole Drill Seargent" is too fucking busy staying alive to keep "pull[ing] you up by the neck"? They find a nice quiet hill to go over - and not in the direction of the fight.

People may go in for a wide variety of reasons - but the person coming out of basic training isn't the same person that goes in. The military has spent millions (if not billions) of dollars to figure out that the kind of asswipe who requires that type of "motivation" never gets over it - they will ALWAYS need to be beaten into submission. Today's military doesn't have the fucking time or the fucking personnel to deal with slackers that need to be beaten into doing what they're supposed to be doing.

If that type of treatment was required to train the personnel - that's the kind of training they'd be getting. You can challenge good people to do their best without smacking them around. You want to get smacked around and called names - hire a Dom.

Hate to tell you this, dude, but the 50s are over, John Wayne is dead - and what the military needs is different too.

[Anthony]

I'm with PD Ryan. You have no clue what you are talking about.

I went through boot camp at NRC Orlando in 1988. Never once had an instructor lay a hand on me. I had many get in my face yelling at me, but never touched.

You must be living in some world where the men were men because they were beaten.

Our Armed Forces win because they were given the best training and equipment to win.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Going to talk to a recruiter in 30 minutes ...

I stopped reading right there.

[PornoDoggy]

I went through boot camp at NRC Orlando in 1988. Never once had an instructor lay a hand on me. I had many get in my face yelling at me, but never touched.

Great Lakes, 1973. Asked the Navy for boot camp in Orlando or San Diego, they sent me to Great Lakes. Asked them for A School in Jacksonville, they sent me to San Diego. Asked for any ship in San Diego, they sent me to the Naval Air Station, Brunswick, Maine.

Spent Christmas Eve 1973 shoveling snow, and New Years Eve standing watch on the fenceline in an ice storm. Ditto on the never being touched, but one of the guys in our sister company was treated the way Ryan thinks recruits should be. He kept complaining about his feet, and his Company Commander treated him like a slacker for three weeks. Denied him sick call (you weren't supposed to, but it's in the gray area, I guess), the whole bit.

Blood poisoning set in, he lost one foot, and he's been drawing 60% disability since 1973.

[RyanLanane]

Hold on a minute, PD has transformed this into a crusade against me...

I never once said it is O.K. to beat the living shit out of a soldier to train them. Here are some of the things I said

"Going in... I would expect nothing less than throwing up from runnign so hard, my hands to be so callous at the end you could hold a lighter to them for two minutes and not feel it, and I would expect a drill Seargant to knock the shit out of me (literally) if I acted out of line. It's what makes a man.. a man "

I never said beat the shit out of EVERYONE ... I said that's what "I" would 'expect' going in... And yeah if I am so exhausted 3/4 of the way through a 10 mile run I would expect if not a DS one of my fellow officers to pull me up and PUSH ME to finish the rest of the damn run ...

Truth be told, I still feel if I 'acted out of line' and told a DS to "Fuck Off" ... Then I sort of deserve it. This is how I think, not everyone has to agree with me...


" Being 10 miles behind 5,000 soldiers who were trained by the biggest fucking asshole Drill Seargent you have ever met in your life that would pull you up by the neck collar if you stopped running 80% of the way througha 20 mile walk... along with other 'unnecessary brutality' "

Nowadays people have gotten so soft they think my above example of someone collapsing at the end of a run that is nearly over should be able to sit down, grab a bottle of water, and catch their breath. We can 'hope' they do better next time when they have 100 rebels chasing them through town and they are alone. Maybe the rebels will let them stop for a bottle of water?

Fuck that, pardon my french.... You go into the Army to be trained. This has nothing, absolutel NOTHING to do with beating a soldier. I stated since women have joined what is considered 'excessive force' or 'improper treatment' is becoming a broader and broader spectrum. If you can deny that, go ahead...

Point out once where I ever said that it was O.K. what the Captain did. And do I consider getting punched in the gut excessive? Yeah... Did it kill the guy though ? Was it really worth ending the career of a man over? Jesus...

All I know is I would NOT want to be the soldier that got punched in the gut and got a decorated officer fired. I could live with just being the soldier that got punched in the gut by a decorated officer right or not.

I agree we disagree on this one ... and you took some of my posts out of context as well..

[JR]

abuse is an important part of the process in my opinion. has anyone ever talked to a marine from 40-50 years ago who had regrets? every one that i know would do it again and again.

hazing does not exist for fun and games and to satisfy sadistic tendencies of a few... it has an important role in solidifying loyalties to an organization or social group - the more intense the abuse, the more intense a persons loyalty tends to be to that organization. its about improved chances of individual survival and survival of the group.

not my idea... just basic fundamentals of pychology.

[PornoDoggy]

Ryan - I'm not making this a crusade against you. You are talking about something you know nothing about, and your posts are demonstrating that.

Two other drill sergeants in his unit were demoted for mistreating recruits, and a fourth is awaiting court-martial. Their captain is serving six months in prison for dereliction of duty.

That's a unit out of control. Unchecked, what follows the conduct described in the article are the sorts of abuses my shipmate went through, or the recent drowning of a Marine Recruit forced into a swimming exercise against his will. These guys have gone through extensive training as to what is acceptable and what is not before they ever push a company through training, and if they failed to learn there is no "gray area", then ain't nobody stupid but them.

The only person responsible for ending the career of Staff Sgt. Michael G. Rhoades is Staff Sgt. Michael G. Rhoades himself. His problems are no more the fault of the recruit who he assaulted any more than the scandal at Abu Griav was caused by the guy who reported it, and to suggest otherwise shows you have NO knowledge about what you are talking about. There's this little thing called "good order and discipline" - and that is not served by extrajudicial corporal punishment.

Unlike you, my ideas about what kind of training is required in the military comes from being in the military. Conduct of military personnel is governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Assault is defined therein. There are appropriate ways to deal with an asswipe who gets out of line - assault is not one of them.

Nowadays people have gotten so soft they think my above example of someone collapsing at the end of a run that is nearly over should be able to sit down, grab a bottle of water, and catch their breath. We can 'hope' they do better next time when they have 100 rebels chasing them through town and they are alone. Maybe the rebels will let them stop for a bottle of water?

I ask again - upon what do you base your assumption that a recruit would leave basic training unable to do the job expected of them? Have you reason to suggest that today's military is unprepared for combat? What makes you think your hands won't be callused, or that you won't be throwing up from running, or that you won't be challenged far more than any silly-ass frat boy hell week shennaigans, without anyone ever laying a hand on you?

Yes, you stated that "since women have joined what is considered 'excessive force' or 'improper treatment' is becoming a broader and broader spectrum" - and you are wrong. It has ALWAYS been illegal, at least since the development of the UCMJ in the 50s.

The reason conduct like that is no longer overlooked is because it is ineffective, pure and simple.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

abuse is an important part of the process in my opinion. has anyone ever talked to a marine from 40-50 years ago who had regrets? every one that i know would do it again and again.

hazing does not exist for fun and games and to satisfy sadistic tendencies of a few... it has an important role in solidifying loyalties to an organization or social group - the more intense the abuse, the more intense a persons loyalty tends to be to that organization. its about improved chances of individual survival and survival of the group.

not my idea... just basic fundamentals of pychology.

I've met plenty of guys who searched Europe and the Pacific, Korea, and/or Vietnam looking for the Company Commander/Drill Instructor that pushed them through boot camp. It's about a 50/50 split whether they wanted to shake their hand or kick their ass.

There is plenty of hazing and abuse that goes on during basic training that's perfectly legal. The training methods of 40 and 50 years ago, with 4 or 6 or 8 million sad sacks in uniform, will not work today.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I've met plenty of guys who searched Europe and the Pacific, Korea, and/or Vietnam looking for the Company Commander/Drill Instructor that pushed them through boot camp. It's about a 50/50 split whether they wanted to shake their hand or kick their ass.

There is plenty of hazing and abuse that goes on during basic training that's perfectly legal. The training methods of 40 and 50 years ago, with 4 or 6 or 8 million sad sacks in uniform, will not work today.

My grandfather lied about his age at 16 to join the Marines and go to Korea. he told me so many stories about boot camp that seem unimaginable today

"Private!"

"Yes Sir"

"Private, do you see this window? I want you to remove it right now!"

"But i don't have any tools Sir!"

"Tools? YOU'RE A FUCKING MARINE!!"

he says he would not trade those experiences for anything.

[TheEnforcer]

This is certainly an interesting discussion to be sure. Put it this way..... when I went through basic in the late 80's I got a physical episode that brought me into line quickly in receiving with the DI's there (receiving DI's were different than your long term training DI's inh terms of agressiveness) and there were other times where little things that a regular DI did, stepping on your fingers during bending and thrusting, pulling on chest hairs for a reaction, etc. etc. that today wouldn't be tolerated today that I didn't think a second about when they happened as they were just a part of boot camp. A movie like Full Metal Jacket was accurate other than, for the most part the physical stuff wasn't as commonplace as in the movie, but it was there in the receiving part of boot camp and in a lesser form, as described above as well. The words by the DI's weren't a whole lot different. All I can say is this. There isn't ANYBODY I have met in my life to this date who will get more respect from me than any DI I encountered during boot camp in the Marine Corps.


but it's not just the treatment from DI's thta bugs me it's stuff like taking mount mother fucker out of the training regimen. That was a tough phase of boot camp and a tough as hell march with a full pack.

[Dravyk]

Uh, Ryan, wouldn't it be cheaper just joining a femdom paysite?

Sorry, had to go for the obvious punchline.

[RyanLanane]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Uh, Ryan, wouldn't it be cheaper just joining a femdom paysite?

Sorry, had to go for the obvious punchline.

Got a url?

[RyanLanane]

I agree I don't know shit about the military from first hand experience PD... I also guarantee up until a year ago noone that new me personally would believe I ever would without a draft. The last year I have changed alot though and I am honestly at about 50/50 on joining.... That number wouldn't change for me personally if I knew that the training involved more than a stern yell in the face. A part of the reason may be because I 'KNOW' if I join, I AM going to war... PERIOD.

As hard as it is to believe, that isn't the scary part for me.. The scary part is I would be 35 by the time I got out of college. I would be away from my daughter 2 out of the next four years. These two things are given I don't kill myself over in Iraq.

Along with that add in the fact I would have to marry a woman I don't love in order for my family to be taken care of properly by the ARMY/MARINES and it makes it difficult to jump with my eyes shut. I agree 100% with the fact they should only offer off base living and count her as a dependant if we are married.. I just don't want to marry her ass lol ..

We'll see what happens in the next month of my life, god has always had a way of showing me how to get through life.. Sure this time will be no different, and the consideration of joining the military is very strong as I truly believe it would make me a better and much stronger person not just physically but mentally as well.

[TheEnforcer]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that any type of physical encounter other than the little things like stepping on a hand, etc generally took place with only the recruit and the DI's were around and not in front of the whole platoon. It certainly has transformed over the years and it did start back when Todd, Ant, and myself were all going through basic. The hardest change for me to swallow are more along the lines of regining in the verbal attacks and taking things like mount mother fucker out of the regimen.

[sextoyking]

Ryan,

Army basic is nothing to worry about, trust me. My nephew got out of basic / ait in may and it was pretty much the same stuff I went through in 1986.

I would make sure to take your Asvab test and then find out what Mos's you qualify for before making a final choice. Mos=what job you will do..

No need to go 11B (foot soldier) unless you want too. Mabey something in computers, etc. Most mos's that aren't combat arms usually stay in the Rear during wars, Support Personal. Now that isn't always true now, since the war in Iraq is everywhere, but you might be a little safer....

Nephew was trained as a combate medic, 8 weeks basic, then like 2-3 months I think of Medic school in Texas. Ft. Sam Houston.

Once you get out of basic - you are fine.. Most combat arms mos's have basic and ait combined, meaning you will stay with your same company / platoon for those 13-20 weeks, etc and not finish basic then goto another base for ait training.

I would choose a mos that at least gave you some skills for the outside world, etc.

Basic in the army isn't bad at all, more head games then anything. Keep your mouth shut most of the time, do what your told and those 2 months are up.

Plus you don't really do alot of 10 mile runs Ryan, we had 1 15 mile march in all those weeks. You do run the 2 mile run on the track in tennies alot, as part of the pt test to finish basic and pass is, so many push ups, situps, and the 2 mile run. If your older then 18, you do less push ups, less situps, and more time to finish the 2 mile run. Pt test goes by age in determining..

once basic starts, most every screw up you or your platoon makes, you will drop for push ups. but you get so used to it, it's nothing. they start out at 10 - 20 at a time. as your body builds, it becomes a no biggie.

All structured man. learn about your weapon, M-16, how to clean, take a part, etc. then off to the rifle range to practice, then like the 3-4 week, take your marksman test, shoot off some rounds at targets, pass and then that's over.

then you do some first aid classes. Also your doing drilling, how to march in step, etc, etc.

It's really no big deal...

[sextoyking]

Also re: bonus's I have seen alot of tv that they are giving away 10-20-40k in bonus's, probably depending on the mos you choose and how long you signup for.

Ask the recruiter about what jobs get what bonus's..

[Peaches]

Ryan, your daughter would be taken care of if you marry the mother or not.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Ryan, your daughter would be taken care of if you marry the mother or not.

Right on Peaches. The services try and make sure they do everything they can to support a military members family. It is very important to them.

[RyanLanane]

Todd, the training and regimen I am not worried about at all. It is the other things I mention that concern me. I's a pretty dramatic thing knowing you are going away for 24 months on two on year tours.. only to see your daughter for a month every 6 months during those time periods. That's if I'm with the mother..

As far as the Signup Bonuses I believe hey are intended to go purely towards education.. Technically what i am being right now is a 70K signup bonus and free college education - but if I don't go to college then I don't get the cash. He mentioned it is a new program and they might have put it into effect recently to assure recruits were using the money properly, I'm not sure.

Peaches, yes I know she would be taken care of by the ARMY/MARINES. However her mother is pulling in $10 an hour.. She would not be in a stable environment like she is now with a nice house and nice things. I spend my last dollar on getting her a new toys before I buy myself a Double Cheeseburger lol.. Basically two incomes are better than one. If I were to Marry Missy they pay for off base housing, groceries, electricity, water, any other utilities etc. All we would pay is Cable and phone. They also would be paying me the $1142 a month if I go in as E-1, my recruiter said with my past job experience E-2 should be no problem and he would push for E3 dependant upon my test scores.. which could push me up to E-3 and $1456 a month.

No taxes on anything BUT the $1456 a month. With all housing, food, etc paid off.. They could easily live off of $500-$600 a month, put some up for savings, and I would probably need some money even when I go on the two tours I assume ..

If we aren't married though, I woudl personally have to pay an additional $400 a month or so out of my own money for the off base quarters, they wouldn't count her as a dependant so less money for groceries, and there were other things that came up... Equals out to $700 a month or so roughly difference if we get married not including the tax benefits. I would make her sign a pre-nump as well.. Still, not the reason I imagined getting married for lol ...

[Peaches]

They don't really pay for that stuff, you get allowances. Sometimes those allowances cover everything, sometimes they don't. One think I found out with my son is to get EVERYTHING in writing. His recruiter forgot to put he was going in as an E3 on his paperwork and if he hadn't caught it, there was literally nothing that could have been done at that point.

I have a link to a good military website http://forums.about.com/ab-usmilitary/start/
That may take you directly to the forums - I can't reach half the sites today and that's one of them - but there are links to some EXCELLENT articles about what does and doesn't happen. There's one called "What your recruiter didn't tell you" or something to that effect that's quite informative.

[Anthony]

My ex wife worked 2 jobs when I was in the military. We got allowances for everything, even extra for being in a high area.

It was extremely hard to make ends meet.

Joining the military is not the answer.

[RyanLanane]

Thanks Peaches and Anthony ...

Anthony I hit you up on ICQ earlier, when you have a chance respond if you don't mind ... I would like to ask you a couple questions about some of the financial aspects I would be looking at enlisting.

If this isn't going to be any easier on her then me going to Wal-Mart and pulling in $10 an hour then there is alot less reason to do it. I'll be honest, alot of it is about making sure my daughter is taken care of (financially) and I am going down the right path in my life to be able to continue to take care of her after the 4 years whether I decide to re-enlist or not.

BTW Why don't sigs show up any more here?

[Trev]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

BTW Why don't sigs show up any more here?

Ryan you need to go into your UserCP -> Edit Options - scroll down to Thread Display Options and check the Show sigs... yadda yadda

[RyanLanane]

Ahhh, just got a phone call. Apparently the combination of the DUI in the past, along with being arrested for possesion of .5 grams of marijuana when I was 16, and transportation of alchohol at 19... Along with my 'violent criminal history' despite the fact that 8 of those charges were dropped after the cops arrested me basically to throw me in the drunk tank for a night.

I don't qualify for the U.S. Army the recruiter said... Weird as he told me that past wasn't a problem when I went in there. Reading that forumn you posted a link to Peaches I also wouldn't of been allowed in as there is a no tolerance policy for people who have had addictions in the past on their medical history. 2 days of Detox in my medical history along with records of me admitting to alchoholism and heavy drug abuse... That would of been enough to stop me from qualifying as it is anyways I guess.

Kind of weird, I suppose even if you wanted to put your life back on track and signup for the ARMY you couldn't... I do see there reasoning, but you would think they would make exceptions with restrictions and the understanding you would be closely monitored etc .. But like PD said no time to police everyone in an all volunteer army I guess.

[Peaches]

That's what I was afraid of. The AF is even stricter (if you have EVER done anything harder than pot you are disqualified) but I wasn't sure about the Army or Marines. Sorry to hear that

[Trev]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Ahhh, just got a phone call. Apparently the combination of the DUI in the past, along with being arrested for possesion of .5 grams of marijuana when I was 16, and transportation of alchohol at 19... Along with my 'violent criminal history' despite the fact that 8 of those charges were dropped after the cops arrested me basically to throw me in the drunk tank for a night.

I don't qualify for the U.S. Army the recruiter said... Weird as he told me that past wasn't a problem when I went in there. Reading that forumn you posted a link to Peaches I also wouldn't of been allowed in as there is a no tolerance policy for people who have had addictions in the past on their medical history. 2 days of Detox in my medical history along with records of me admitting to alchoholism and heavy drug abuse... That would of been enough to stop me from qualifying as it is anyways I guess.

Kind of weird, I suppose even if you wanted to put your life back on track and signup for the ARMY you couldn't... I do see there reasoning, but you would think they would make exceptions with restrictions and the understanding you would be closely monitored etc .. But like PD said no time to police everyone in an all volunteer army I guess.

No offence Ryan, but even without the "admitted addictions" and the drug related offence's, the "violent criminal history" rings alarm bells straight away.

You'd think violence would be something the army would want but it's not, as you'd be seen as someone that is "going" to be a problem from the outset.

The army needs people easy to train and guaranteed to follow orders, not people with a tendency to spit back.

[RyanLanane]

Peaches, the army is defiantely the most leniant out of all the options...

Trev, I agree bud - and I'll admit it was due to having a problem with authority (when I owned my bar) that I was arrested all those times. Thing that suprised me is it didn't matter that I wasn't convicted the mere fact it is on my 'rap sheet' was enough...

I would really hate to see the FBI file on me, and I'm not kidding ... I probably never would of got below the lowest security clearance. Guess all those years when I said "It doesn't matter if I get a DUI" ... "What's one more arrest on my record, how's that going to affect me" ... "Who cares if the feds are watching me go grab an 8 Ball" ... etc have come back to bite me in the ass ... I always was an extremely arrogant sofb !

Maybe it's gods way of telling me make this internet thing work for me again too.. They say he works in mysterious ways although this isn't exactly mysterious (rather blatantly obvious)

[sarettah]

Ryan...There are always more than one way to skin a cat. Or get into the military, as it were

If you really want in, hit up your congressman's office. They can do a lot of things.

[XXXPhoto]

Just one little tidbit recruiter might not have mentioned. When you join, you do so for 8 years. You might only be active for 2, 4 or 6 but that little pink contract puts you in the IRR til your 8 years are up. In the recent past, this wasn't an issue. But for certain MOS's, folks are getting called back into service to go visit the middle east. That "Based on the needs of the Army" clause in there has also kept a few in the sand well beyond their DEROS.

Recruiters job is to get you to the local MEPS station. That's where you pick your job, sign contracts, swear in... ect. Anything the recruiter tells you should be taken with grain of salt because it's the guys at MEPS who will be ones doing the real paperwork that determines where you go for basic training and MOS you pick. They are very good about making it seem you don't have a choice in some matters but just like when you are at car dealership, you can walk out anytime you wish. Don't be an asshole but also don't let them roll over you with something you don't fully understand. Ask all the questions you can, because they won't just offer information.

If your ASVAB scores are high, then no need to be an 11 series unless you want that... Here's a list of what's available... http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/l/blarmos.htm

If you can get clearance and have high ASVAB, I'd recommend doing anything in the MI or EW areas (90s series).

[RyanLanane]

Seth, I can't remember exactly what he said my score was but I took a prelim ASVAB test and he said I would qualify very easily to get into the fields I wanted too - which were basically anything in the computing field as that is obviously where the money is.

Sarettah, I wish it was that simple. One thing I don't mention that often and probably very few people know about me is I have been diagnosed as having Bi-Polar Disorder 1

Meaning essentially I am a moody ass, anti-social at many times, (on drugs) delusional, and many other side effects the army does not want out of soldiers. I was hoping if I stayed clean and on my meds the army would let it slide... Should of known better. The recruiter said to stay off meds for one month (at first he said you need to be off them for a year and have psych sign a waiver) which I think I could have handled and been perfectly fine ... But you add all this in with the other problems and I don't think it was meant to be unfortunately. I can honestly tell you it was something I was very very seriously considering despite the fact I knew I would be overseas within 6 months of signing on..

Honestly after the last few weeks and how I have handled the problems that came up in my life alchohol and drug free - I can tell you I probably would of been either a very intense SOFB at boot camp or I would of crossed the line and tested authority at a level it shouldn't of been.... So it is probably for the best, never having had a real 'BOSS' that knew how to be a boss... in my LIFE ... heh ... I either better get to kicking ass or get a real boss and get on the train with everyone else..

Ironically, he said if I came back and re-tested I could have been a 'pharmacist' (oh yeah give that to an ex-druggy ... smart) or anything else in the medical field which I never would of thought I had the 'smarts' for ... Wasn't ever much of a student, more of a 'learn it on my own' type of person...

I would rather have Street Smarts than Book Smarts though honestly... Street Smarts you can apply to every day life. You just have to apply them properly... Book Smarts, you know everything in the world but you are so damn dis-organized when it comes to anything in life that isn't structured that IQ of 150 + does you NO GOOD...