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I was asked to find a good programmer to do some occasional work when our full time programmer is too bogged down. Here are some of the qualities they need to possess :
1) Full working knowledge of php scripting and cgi scripting, building a program from scratch and modifying existing programs if needed.
2) Some installations may be required on/off depending on the load of all the other employees at the time. Possibly answering small questions about installations as well.
3) Experience dealing with other programmers on complex projects. You also must possess the ability to work well with other programmers rather than having a confrontational attitude, which does noone any good.
4) Willing to work 24-36 hours straight if need be when a serious/catastrophic issue arises - This is more of a "on call" opportunity and would not be a full time job. We would ask that it never take more than say 4-6 hours for you to be able to get back to us if we need you on something, possibly less time.
5) Knowledge of all the basics such as MySQL Database management etc, and any other skills that would make you more qualified for the position.
Please submit a resume, with at least 5-6 references if you are interested and send it to ryan at teamcybermed dot com
Originally posted by DrGuile@Mar 23 2005, 05:10 PM That's where you are either a jackass or not. Doesnt mean you are a bad programmer...
a smart programmer will be willing to learn from others.
Most programmers are not smart programmers.
I learn from those around kme all the time... That does not mean I will back down, kiss ass or kowtow to someone who does not know what they are talking about.
That does not make me a jackass...... (although I may well be one)...
I am independent and hard headed and I express my opinion. Many people consider anything other than "Yes'm" to be "confrontational"... Most of the system development sessions I have been involved in have usually gotten fairly hot. Doesn't mean we didn't listen to each other, doesn't mean we didn't learn and doesn't mean we didn't get the project straight and done. It means that we had several GOOD developers in a room together.......
Dravyk, believe me I know .... It isn't the most glamourous job. It will be when we need another programmer working due to the current programmer being totally swamped.
Sarettah I also agree with you but respectfully disagree. If a programmer is that stubborn what good does it do to have him working on a certain part of a program while another programmer is working on another if at the end their two pieces don't fit like puzzle pieces and they each blame eachother rather than working constructively.
We need someone who can overcome their own ego and work with people without a 'holier than thou' attitude
This is definately not the idea part-time job for everyone.... But if someone is more of a freelancer and doesn't have alot of work on their plates while they are building up their name this is a great opportunity for them in particular.
Doesn't have to be at the drop of a dime, but really quickly after we say we need some help - matter of hours not days type of thing
Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 23 2005, 05:53 PM Sarettah I also agree with you but respectfully disagree. If a programmer is that stubborn what good does it do to have him working on a certain part of a program while another programmer is working on another if at the end their two pieces don't fit like puzzle pieces and they each blame eachother rather than working constructively.
Who said anything about stubborn ? Confrontational and stubborn are two totally different things. The situation you described should not occur if the team is structured properly with a good lead in place to act as tie breaker when it is needed.
I look at stubborn and confrontational as almost the same thing in this instance. For example you both have your half of the program complete and the two pieces aren't fitting together.
In my past experience with programmers (when I had multiple programmers working on a job, or someone editing a prior programmers work) it is never either of the programmers fault. They are both stubborn about the possibility they could have made a mistake, which leads to confrontation when I had to go tell both of them the other one says the problem is with their work.
And yeah I tried "I don't care what's wrong, just work together and fix it guys" Maybe you aren't like that, but a lot of people I have dealt with were.... Always a bad apple or two in the bunch though
Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 23 2005, 09:53 PM Shot back at you again
I look at stubborn and confrontational as almost the same thing in this instance. For example you both have your half of the program complete and the two pieces aren't fitting together.
In my past experience with programmers (when I had multiple programmers working on a job, or someone editing a prior programmers work) it is never either of the programmers fault. They are both stubborn about the possibility they could have made a mistake, which leads to confrontation when I had to go tell both of them the other one says the problem is with their work.
And yeah I tried "I don't care what's wrong, just work together and fix it guys" Maybe you aren't like that, but a lot of people I have dealt with were.... Always a bad apple or two in the bunch though
Like I say, a good solid project leader should have nipped that in the bud early on. If the project is speced properly then putting it together is a cakewalk...
Most time on a project should be spent in the design phase and the testing phase, not in the coding phase...
But, multiple programmer projects can be difficult to put together. I have tunred down many projects because of the reluctance of the non programmer folks I was dealing with to appoint someone other than themselves to be in charge. A multi programmer project without a clear lead programmer to keep his/her thumb down on the team is usually a straight death march (which is a great book on project management, etc... funnier than all out to read too...oh, the book is called "Death March"...)
hmmm...still waiting for HellPuppy to weigh in on this thread. He has some very definite opinions on this subject....
Oh, I have opinions on all this all right. But I wont be a jackass. And Sarettah already covered about as much Project Management 101 as I'm inclined to type up at the moment...
Short version... "Part time programmer" usually means you're gonna get a program that works part of the time as well.
I appreciate Ryan's problem. He has 1 programmer on staff, he has enough work for more than 1 programmer, but not quite enough work or budget to hire a second fulltime.
That's a tough one...and here's why....
First off, you're asking the second programmer to "jump in" on ongoing projects as needed when he wasn't around to contribute to the design phase. Furthermore he's not involved in the day to day, he may not even comprehend WHY he's being ask to do what he's doing and the business reasons behind it. That makes for code that doesn't often meet customer expectations.
Now, to make it worse, you're telling me that WHEN the shit breaks, you'd like this guy to throw down whatever else he's doing and go head down til it's fixed even if he has to work 36 hours straight. If he can promise that, he's not in demand, and there's likely a reason why.
I'm also working on the assumption that there probably are no functional specs for whatever projects are being worked. You've only got one programmer, so I'm sure someone described to him what they wanted and he sat down and started coding it. Pity the poor bastard that has to try to go in behind him and figure out what the hell he's doing.
I've seen way too many products in this industry in particular where someone has a great idea, they hire someone to code it, but dont keep them around. They need enhancements and grab someone else. Still no functional spec, you're just hacking code. You end up with an unreliable piece of shit that no one worth their salt will touch with a 10 foot pole.
Damn, and I said I was gonna keep this short and not go into it...
I knew this from years ago and it's all coming back, programmers are a lot like artists in my eyes
The one good thing I can say about this position is 'for the most part' it would be unique programs this second programmer will be working on. Some of the programs may integrate into programs (or interact with) another programmer built but we would not be saying :
"O.K. We are going to build a search engine and I want you to take care of programming the start of the search function and then I will have the other programmer working on the end of the search function at the same time"
Which, after reading my OP I can see why it would of come across like that.. I do have a question for both you and Sarettah though Hell Puppy. I am aware that you rarely find a programmer who codes like another one so as a theoretical question - If you have 2 programmers on staff will you have a lot of problems and programs being fixed non stop if you have one programmer fix/modify a small portion of code a different programmer built from ground up? Or if you already have a solid programmer should the second programmer be able to hop in and find the problems/modify it to your liking right away ?
I've probably had at least nine coders work on Content God over the years. Four of whom I would probably call Chief Programmers. Every one of them has always said the programmers that before them "coded sloppy", aka, used 20 lines when they could have used 3, didn't code "logically", etc.
I've pretty much come to realize that every programmer thinks who ever came before them was sloppier than, and not as good as, they are.
Originally posted by Dravyk@Mar 24 2005, 09:50 AM I've probably had at least nine coders work on Content God over the years. Four of whom I would probably call Chief Programmers. Every one of them has always said the programmers that before them "coded sloppy", aka, used 20 lines when they could have used 3, didn't code "logically", etc.
I've pretty much come to realize that every programmer thinks who ever came before them was sloppier than, and not as good as, they are.
That's been my experience as well - hence the reason I posted I want a programmer that is able to work well with others and comprimise/keep a positive attitude and not place the blame on others... Just to fix it however they have to
Me and you should talk about it some time Dravyk, if you don't mind...
"No matter what code I look at, my first reaction is always, without fail.."Who wrote this shit?"...and a lot of times the answer will be that I wrote it myself a year ago and don't remember a thing about it "
Couldn't help but LMAO when I read that
You seem like an excellent programmer Sarettah - I am sure we will work together at some point of time. Reading your posts has been very informative and given me a glimpse into the programmer's mind.
Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 24 2005, 04:38 PM You seem like an excellent programmer Sarettah - I am sure we will work together at some point of time. Reading your posts has been very informative and given me a glimpse into the programmer's mind.
Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 24 2005, 12:14 PM
Which, after reading my OP I can see why it would of come across like that.. I do have a question for both you and Sarettah though Hell Puppy. I am aware that you rarely find a programmer who codes like another one so as a theoretical question - If you have 2 programmers on staff will you have a lot of problems and programs being fixed non stop if you have one programmer fix/modify a small portion of code a different programmer built from ground up? Or if you already have a solid programmer should the second programmer be able to hop in and find the problems/modify it to your liking right away ?
Saretah already nailed it. It's all about the design and documentation up front.
A program of any complexity at all will be written 10 different ways by 10 different programmers. And each one of them thinks their way is the best and will be more than willing to defend that position vigorously with deep geeky explanations.
And if the project is documented properly, it just doesn't matter.
The web, even on the adult side, is rapidly becoming very dynamic. Even something like a TGP is database driven these days. I've been moving my sites in that direction for years and years already. And we spend tons of time upfront deciding exactly what we want to do and designing a database that will be able to meet those needs before the first line of code is written.
If one of our other programmers comes in behind me to try to add some new feature to one of our sites, he'll likely open my code up and go "who wrote this shit?!?!" and cuss for a bit. But afterward, he'll open up the database docs and if he's even remotely worth his salt will immediately know how to do pretty much anything he wants with the actual content of the site.
It's all about the data and letting the programmer know how to put it in and get it back out consistently in a manner that will co-exist with all of the other code that is already written.
Unfortunately there are a lot of programmers out there who can make the computer get up off the desk and dance in either Perl or PHP, but they know absolutely dick about good database design.
Are we making this sound difficult? Well, it IS very difficult to find good experienced well seasoned programmers. And it is pretty much impossible to get a good one who'll work cheap.
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Mar 25 2005, 12:29 AM A program of any complexity at all will be written 10 different ways by 10 different programmers. And each one of them thinks their way is the best and will be more than willing to defend that position vigorously with deep geeky explanations.
When I used to teach programming and would be asked about the right way versus the wrong way, I explained it this way:
If I give the same problem to one million programmers I will get one million different solutions. If they all have the right output, then they are all right. Some may be more efficient, some may be prettier, some may be faster but if they all produce the correct results then they are all right....
Hard concept for folks that have been wired since birth to "a right way versus a wrong way" with no greay in between to grab onto...
HellPuppy nailed it on the database design.. It is very easy to undernormalize a database, which leads to lots of inefficiencies and it is just as easy to over normalize a database, which again leads to inefficiencies... It is a balancing act that takes first, a good design and secondly tuning to realities..
I can take a simple database and just through poor use of indexes and poor design have it run at a snails pace or I can take a very complex data structure and through proper use of indexes and good design have it run flat out fast as hell....
It is all in the design. That's what folks don't seem to get.
(and it is all sequential no matter what anyone tells you)
Originally posted by Dravyk@Mar 24 2005, 12:50 PM I've probably had at least nine coders work on Content God over the years. Four of whom I would probably call Chief Programmers. Every one of them has always said the programmers that before them "coded sloppy", aka, used 20 lines when they could have used 3, didn't code "logically", etc.
I've pretty much come to realize that every programmer thinks who ever came before them was sloppier than, and not as good as, they are.
hell yes, that's garanteed...
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 25 2005, 03:00 PM Contrary to any rumors flying around, I have NOT kiled any of the 9 programmers Dravyk has had working on Content God.
Originally posted by Dravyk+Mar 25 2005, 08:01 PM-->
QUOTE (Dravyk @ Mar 25 2005, 08:01 PM)
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Originally posted by JerryW@Mar 25 2005, 03:47 PM I know the current one is overdue.
Remind me not to work for you. I really don't want to see what your code looks like after 9 programmer's have been working on it [/quote]
Those are the kind of systems I love coming in on....
Guaranteed long term projects
There is a guy I knew (he worked for the same company as me back 5 years or so ago) and there are 2 guys in town that have made a decent living coming in behind him and making his code actually work
Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 25 2005, 04:27 PM Those are the kind of systems I love coming in on....
Guaranteed long term projects
There is a guy I knew (he worked for the same company as me back 5 years or so ago) and there are 2 guys in town that have made a decent living coming in behind him and making his code actually work
Remember the post about every programmer thinks the one before has used too many lines to code? The good thing is then that every new programmer streamlines all the coding that's come before him!
Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 25 2005, 06:09 PM lolol...What they are actually doing is learning the code......
Worst thing to hear from anyone when they are doing that is.... Whoops
We've had many a whoops. That's why it's always beta tested and quality controlled.
Right before the CG3.0 roll-out, beta-testing caught something. Programmer said, that will cost extra, I never touched that module, I only touched these modules. After we proved that something between the two modules was connected and that he did stop the first one from working by doing something on the second, he said "whoops". Then it got fixed and we released the product, in working order.
Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 26 2005, 08:24 AM The kind I'm talking about is when the programmer deletes a couple of hundred lines of "useless code" and after saving it (without a backup of course...who needs a fucking net anyway ?) discovers that it really wasn't all that useless..... WHOOPS
Er .... that's called a "whoops"?
I don't wanna know what you consider a "disaster"!
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Mar 26 2005, 06:20 PM How many programmers in the adult industry are seasoned enough to have a plan to rollback their changes when they are applied to the live production site in case something goes wrong?
In my experience, it's essentially none.
DOS Tip: back up the entire site including a snapshot of the database before you let your programmers install their new stuff.
HP, must be my personal experience, but ...
- I copy the site to my drive.
- I dump the database to my drive.
- I have someone working for me or with me do the same thing.
- I have a copy of each also gzipped as "blahblah_old" on the server.
(Btw. I also pay extra for daily server and db backups!)
THEN I upgrade the new version!
Ok, that's not true ....
I actually do everything above and then upgrade the TEST duplicate site that's not open to the public, and then if THAT works, THEN I upgrade!
Yeah, I know. I'm one cautious mother ... but I've learned to be the hard way.
03-23-2005
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.... And that's even with having a Project Manager as a buffer!
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