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How do you feel the marketing should take place?
Every way possible that doesn't damage your image, you're already good at that Joe
Do you like the affiliate model as an open model?
Yes for revshare
Do you feel affiliates are good, but on an invite only model?
Yes for PPS
do you think the days of affiliates are over and it is best to control your own traffic by your own means?
You need your own traffic for your base. If every affiliate drops out of your program because the sky is blue tomorrow you must keep generating revenue
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I have been considering the question about whether an affiliate program is worth it anymore at all. With everything that you have to provide to an affiliate (content, hosting, fhgs, etc.) to get them to send traffic and then pay them a largely inflated amount of money for the signups they send, I'm almost positive that you can keep your own assets (content, hosting, gallery templates, etc.) that you would have otherwise provided affiliates and generate your own traffic, with a much lower acquisition cost for signups.
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 21 2005, 10:03 AM I have been considering the question about whether an affiliate program is worth it anymore at all. With everything that you have to provide to an affiliate (content, hosting, fhgs, etc.) to get them to send traffic and then pay them a largely inflated amount of money for the signups they send, I'm almost positive that you can keep your own assets (content, hosting, gallery templates, etc.) that you would have otherwise provided affiliates and generate your own traffic, with a much lower acquisition cost for signups.
Very interesting but .....
... there is still a "labor" factor. Someone has to do the work to get the eyeballs to the sites
That begs the question
Is it more cost efficient to have labor done in house?
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Originally posted by Vick@Feb 21 2005, 07:33 AM Very interesting but .....
... there is still a "labor" factor. Someone has to do the work to get the eyeballs to the sites
That begs the question
Is it more cost efficient to have labor done in house?
There is a formula you would have to create to keep acquisition costs to your target.
Minimum wage paid, comssion bonuses on signups generated, minimum number of signups generated and how much time it takes to generate them. I'm sure that you can pay someone an hourly wage and a per signup commission and still keep your acquisition costs lower than they would be with an affiliate program. If your employee doesn't meet the quoat assigned to meet your cost objectives, it's time to find a new employee. Sure you would have to deal with attrition, but that has always been part of an affiliate program as well.
Another positive benefit would be control over how traffic is generated and how the sites are sold to surfers, which could affect member retention and member values. Increase member values, decrease member acquisition costs and guess what grows
I agree - there are many areas of promotion where affiliates are no use anymore since getting traffic is more streamlined in todays market.
Paysites that want to do a few hundred signups per day they do not need a affiliate program. Ofcourse if you do not know where to get those signups from, then you would need a affiliate program, and hope someone will send you their traffic.
Without affiliates I would say acquisition cost per signups is much lower, and so is your potential risks (carding, overselling, traffic pulling, rumor mill etc.).
If you wanted to do thousands of new signups per day, then I think its possible without a affiliate program, however you would need lots of liquid capital to start and long ROI.
Cutting out the middleman works for Dell ;-)
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And (no sell, I swear, just the truth) if a paysite owner eithers gets their own CMS made or purchases an existing one, you increase the ROI. An employee (or employees) can make many more feeder sites in much less time using a program made for that purpose than they can by hand.
And the beauty is, employees are a recurring expense, a script is a one-time expense. Figure it out and the cost of a script purchase will be paid for quickly, while lowering employee expenses and while increasing the productivity and number of the sites and galleries being made.
To put it another way, remember when CE hired 160 employees, five supervisors and a project manager to make traffic feeders? Could have been done with three to five employees and one good script and in a fraction of the time.
The affiliate model isn't going away any time soon. Lessened maybe, stricter standards as well, but it isn't going away as long as it remains profitable.
Employees would be trained. There is no way I'd hire a current webmaster to do something like this. Then the one thing you run into is them learning how to do it from you and then quitting to do it on their own. That's where a good agreement comes in to play.
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 21 2005, 01:44 PM Employees would be trained. There is no way I'd hire a current webmaster to do something like this. Then the one thing you run into is them learning how to do it from you and then quitting to do it on their own. That's where a good agreement comes in to play.
Originally posted by JoesHO1@Feb 20 2005, 04:24 PM How do you feel the marketing should take place?
Do you like the affiliate model as an open model?
Do you feel affiliates are good, but on an invite only model?
do you think the days of affiliates are over and it is best to control your own traffic by your own means?
Yes
No
Your kidding?? Unless you have at your fingertips millions of daily uniques then affiliate are critical to the success of any program. I am not talking mom & pop gee whiz members sites, i mean the lets spend the $300,000 for a booth and party at Internext because we can easily afford it programs. You want that kind of revenue then you NEED your affiliates.....and ya need them happy and enthusiastically promoting your program/sites. That means a lot of tools for them to use and a lot of attention spent to what they tell you/suggest that they would like to see in your program. It may mean a lot of work and an exspediture of hard cash. but it'll pay off in the end.
ask me in a year
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 21 2005, 01:44 PM Employees would be trained. There is no way I'd hire a current webmaster to do something like this. Then the one thing you run into is them learning how to do it from you and then quitting to do it on their own. That's where a good agreement comes in to play.
The other problem I see here is that if they learn from you, you will never get anything more or different than what you already know.
The good thing with affiliates is that they will get markets that you either wouldnt think of, or dont know how to market.
They'll also get you in trouble sometimes, but eh, as with everything, its a balancing act.
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Originally posted by DrGuile@Feb 21 2005, 01:23 PM btw, Hi Becky! You're are way too quiet these days... its kinda scary
Hey I like to hide hehe
I think their ability to adapt and find new markets depends on the environment you have them in. If they are in a bullpen area and properly incentivized, they will use the assets given to them to increase their earning potential.
Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Feb 21 2005, 12:50 PM The affiliate model isn't going away any time soon. Lessened maybe, stricter standards as well, but it isn't going away as long as it remains profitable.
and the key bit of this sentence ... AS LONG AS IT REMAINS PROFITABLE
it stopped being profitable long ago TE ... the days of the affiliate model are counting down fast, and if you honestly think its around forever you will get a big shock when programs start closing their doors to new affiliates and only working with the 20% that actually produce profits. Look around at the serious business folk in this industry - they've already done it, and we didn't even notice.
Look around at the programs that are left ... none of the folks who made a LOT of money from this biz bother anymore, except maxcash, ars and a handful of others. To read Becky's comments in this thread makes me very happy - if ARS is seeing the end of the affiliate model, who do you think is going to step in and pick it up? ARS are it ... they are the only example of a program who became and stayed successful by targetting tens of thousands of small affiliates - and the team there are as capable and switched on as any in this biz.
Anyone who relies on the affiliate model to make millions these days better understand fraud protection, retention, budgeting, billing, content etc EXCEPTIONALLY WELL - and in case you haven't noticed, there aint many left who do. And no, having millions in the bank DOESN'T help you when visa decides they don't like your site.
Claiming that a site needs an affiliate program to achieve big sales is just ignorant ... even at the peak of the industry those who were kicking ass only relied on affiliate traffic for 50% of their biz with the other 50% being inhouse traffic. over half of that 50% of affiliate traffic was USELESS and a loss leader to pick up the few valuable affiliates with good traffic.
Spaz ...
Quote:
I am not talking mom & pop gee whiz members sites, i mean the lets spend the $300,000 for a booth and party at Internext because we can easily afford it programs.
Wasting money on showing off is not a sign of who is doing well ... a booth for 5000 webmasters (50% of which are there for the titties) is the most rediculous investment of $300k imaginable. For $300k you could do a marketing campaign that would reach every single webmaster on the internet and never have to leave your house - and make MORE than a $300k booth would ever make. Few of the companies who spend this much can 'easily afford it' and believing that is a sure fire way to get yourself ripped off by companies who waste money on everything but paying you for joins ... spending a lot of money doesn't automatically make a company successful.
I crunched the numbers many times because I wanted to have a booth ... not because I thought it would help, but because I wanted a cool place to sit and drink tea and I wanted naked guys serving it to me and basically I just wanted the experience. Instead, I just pulled up a chair in other people's booths or found a couch near the bar - doing business with a professional doesn't need flashing neon lights, it needs conversation.
In our final quarter at sexhit we turned over in excess of $100 Million, and we STILL couldn't justify a booth for any other reason than showing off. We did $2 million in prepays instead, right after an Internext ... everyone else spent a fortune on shit that can't be converted back into profits. we waited till everyone got back and dropped a bomb that no $300k booth could compete with - and guess who ended up with the traffic.
Dr. Guile - I disagree that you can't find people who will help grow ideas and traffic generation techniques if they are on payroll. Proper incentives and continued ability to grow can help get the best out of employees.
CJ - I'm still a firm believer that this industry is going to have a crash. I think that the price of traffic is way too high for what it's really worth. Yes payouts remain high, but in order to continue to pay those high payouts, you need to beat the surfer up with consoles, x sells, high recurring memberships, member upsells, emailing, some even resort to deceptive billing practices, etc. All of this gives our industry a bad name and eventually something is going to give. And none of the sponsors out there are going to cut their payouts.
My best guess at this point is the death of 3rd party processors will bring it about. Once it requires merchant accounts to be able to process for paysites, things will correct themselves, I'm sure of it.
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 22 2005, 01:35 PM CJ - I'm still a firm believer that this industry is going to have a crash. I think that the price of traffic is way too high for what it's really worth. Yes payouts remain high, but in order to continue to pay those high payouts, you need to beat the surfer up with consoles, x sells, high recurring memberships, member upsells, emailing, some even resort to deceptive billing practices, etc. All of this gives our industry a bad name and eventually something is going to give. And none of the sponsors out there are going to cut their payouts.
My best guess at this point is the death of 3rd party processors will bring it about. Once it requires merchant accounts to be able to process for paysites, things will correct themselves, I'm sure of it.
Agree with every point you made Becky ... we are heading for yet another big industry crash but this one will cull the industry in half, or at least split it into 2 distinct groups ... serious and hobby
I was thinking the epoch rumour was going to be the start of it
Like you said, once everyone is required to have their own merchant account it will become a lot harder industry to get into ...
BRING IT ON!!!!!!
How is everyone in the ARS crew doing these days? You seem to have branched into so many other areas the adult side must be a very small part of your business now? How did the video games that mark was working on go?
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 21 2005, 01:44 PM Employees would be trained. There is no way I'd hire a current webmaster to do something like this. Then the one thing you run into is them learning how to do it from you and then quitting to do it on their own.
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Spaz, which affiliate program have you run in the past that has generated enough business to spend $300k on a booth? Theories are nice to chat about, but I'm curious what actual experience you have with generating a bulk amount of affiliates to your program?
You are talking to someone who spent her first 4 years in the industry doing business with 2 drinks permanently planted in her hands, so no, it doesn't escape me that biz can be done during parties.
And yes, I am aware the bulk of the industry is image based ... so is hollywood ... it doesn't mean there is any money being generated behind the image. 20% is all i care about, you can go play with the 80% and the big flashy parties all you like ... but assuming its going to make you rich is a sure fire way to be very disappointed.
I didn't say affiliate programs were dead, I never said the sky was falling ... it does appear someone has their head in the clouds though.
Originally posted by cj@Feb 22 2005, 10:47 PM LMAO
Spaz, which affiliate program have you run in the past that has generated enough business to spend $300k on a booth? Theories are nice to chat about, but I'm curious what actual experience you have with generating a bulk amount of affiliates to your program?
You are talking to someone who spent her first 4 years in the industry doing business with 2 drinks permanently planted in her hands, so no, it doesn't escape me that biz can be done during parties.
And yes, I am aware the bulk of the industry is image based ... so is hollywood ... it doesn't mean there is any money being generated behind the image. 20% is all i care about, you can go play with the 80% and the big flashy parties all you like ... but assuming its going to make you rich is a sure fire way to be very disappointed.
I didn't say affiliate programs were dead, I never said the sky was falling ... it does appear someone has their head in the clouds though.
LMFAO ever heard of a little program called Extreme Paychecks? You know the program I worked for in house for over a year and continue to do work for? & no, I didn't start their affiliate program or run it on my own or anything. But I didnt sit there for a year with my head in the sand ignoring everything that was going on around me either. I am not saying how much they spent on a booth for 2 reasons.
1) its non of mine or anyone else business
2) I don't know an exact amount
But if ya saw this last Jan's booth AND the party at Club Ice I think you will get the idea that John invested a little bit of money in this show.
Oh, and I would be willing to bet that he got one hell of an ROI on it.
I don't cater to anyone, I am not looking for the 80% while you get the 20%. I want 100% for the same reasons some affiliates will use RS or some other submit program. Its a numbers game. While cetain people may choose to ignore the affiliates who, on their best days can only generate one sale a month, I welcome them all........because there is a lot of them out there. and run the numbers on that.
hypothetical here *2000 affiliates X 1 sale per month = 2000 sales
I hope I am never to successful to just blow off 2000 sales in a month. Do I want to just have the affiliates who are unable to generate that many sales themselves? FUCK NO! I want the big time affiliates as well. combining the 80% you turn your nose up at, and the 20% you like so much is how I want to make money.
guess what, it works.
You just need to know how to attract them. Do I personally? Beats me, but I am sure as shit gonna try!
Originally posted by cj@Feb 22 2005, 04:33 PM Agree with every point you made Becky ... we are heading for yet another big industry crash but this one will cull the industry in half, or at least split it into 2 distinct groups ... serious and hobby
I was thinking the epoch rumour was going to be the start of it
Like you said, once everyone is required to have their own merchant account it will become a lot harder industry to get into ...
BRING IT ON!!!!!!
How is everyone in the ARS crew doing these days? You seem to have branched into so many other areas the adult side must be a very small part of your business now? How did the video games that mark was working on go?
The ARS crew is busy as usual. I'm working on the paysite side now. Marc has a lot of other business ventures besides adult yes, but he still focuses a lot on ARS.
Savage was the game and it did pretty well. It's still selling copies and he is talking about doing another one
Open application but each account needs to be hand approved. You get the advantage of a closed program in that you know who everyone is and you know the url’s they send from. You can see who is going to be a problem usually right from the beginning.
I agree with many of you I do not see the affiliate model go away but a PPS model may disappear. The numbers in favor of revshare make it easy to have a 50/50 or even a 60/40 program. We just increased payouts to 60/40 because we know it will make affiliates push us harder. The small loss on increased payout is and has been compensated by an increase in signups. Since we do not ever have to pay more then 60% on a join we are also never have to worry about a negative cash flow cross sells or rebills. You will see we do not even have a popup on any of our new tours.
You guys keep the fancy parties and the $40 payouts on $1 joins. I have been told it works even shown how on paper but that’s not our game. If you want to earn a steady income that grows each month consistently with a company that knows how to recur you know were I can be found
Originally posted by Spw Guru@Feb 24 2005, 01:41 PM Or you could mix them like us.
Open application but each account needs to be hand approved. You get the advantage of a closed program in that you know who everyone is and you know the url’s they send from. You can see who is going to be a problem usually right from the beginning.
I agree with many of you I do not see the affiliate model go away but a PPS model may disappear. The numbers in favor of revshare make it easy to have a 50/50 or even a 60/40 program. We just increased payouts to 60/40 because we know it will make affiliates push us harder. The small loss on increased payout is and has been compensated by an increase in signups. Since we do not ever have to pay more then 60% on a join we are also never have to worry about a negative cash flow cross sells or rebills. You will see we do not even have a popup on any of our new tours.
You guys keep the fancy parties and the $40 payouts on $1 joins. I have been told it works even shown how on paper but that’s not our game. If you want to earn a steady income that grows each month consistently with a company that knows how to recur you know were I can be found
Hey charlie, what if you guys put your own pop up on your sites? like pop the gay one from the karups pc or karups pc from the amatures one etc.... ever thought about that ? if so why does that not work ?
Originally posted by Becky@Feb 24 2005, 04:04 PM The ARS crew is busy as usual. I'm working on the paysite side now. Marc has a lot of other business ventures besides adult yes, but he still focuses a lot on ARS.
Savage was the game and it did pretty well. It's still selling copies and he is talking about doing another one
ooh excellent
he was so happy to get into something he'd been wanting to do for ages ... i love seeing people not just make it big, but make it big doing something they enjoy.
Hopefully you are still enjoying the paysite stuff or at least getting to work on some fun things too
02-20-2005
Instead, I just pulled up a chair in other people's booths or found a couch near the bar - doing business with a professional doesn't need flashing neon lights, it needs conversation.
earl:
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