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I have done almost zero work today - been watching the news, its 9/11 again for me, but this time it was children that was the target - I feel sick watching this...
When I tought terrorists where reaching a low in their sick acts, then they do some thing like this... I do not live in Russia, however right now I would be willing to join any russian army going after these fuckers - and I used to be peaceful...
I just wonder what Putin will do.... maybe I will have to buy a new world map next year....
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
They have been bringing out children who were wounded and killed - couldnīt take my eyes from the TV... the terrorists did not allow the children to get food and water, so they had to drink their own urine, and when the children were fleeing from the school the terrorist shoot them in the back... fucking sick!!!
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
He is a war hero - he would make every nation safer by going to the UN and building coalitions with France!!
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Originally posted by dantheman@Sep 3 2004, 01:02 PM they also confirmed that some if not most of the terriost are from the middle east........shocking
Maybe people will wake up now.... I doubt it.
We have been at war since the early 1980s against islamicism. Only recenly have we started fighting back.
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 3 2004, 10:00 AM Maybe they will vote for Kerry.
He is a war hero - he would make every nation safer by going to the UN and building coalitions with France!!
I mean no offense man, but please don't use the dead bodies of children as a pulpit to push forth political opinions and agendas, leave that up to the real politicians.
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Originally posted by eroswebmaster+Sep 3 2004, 01:27 PM-->
QUOTE (eroswebmaster @ Sep 3 2004, 01:27 PM)
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I disagree Michael. And the reason that I disagree is because I don't think the American populace would allow it to happen regardless of who wins the Presidency.
Nor do I think that any American plane will ever be jacked again the way they were on 9/11. I think the passengers would take matters into their own hands and overpower any highjackers, after all, they've got no reason not to, after seeing what happened 3 years ago when they tried to cooperate with the fuckers.
I agree we are dealing with a group of people who will sink to whatever levels they can to make a point..and that's scary.
I remember back during the cold war Sting came out with the song "I hope the Russians love their children too." The point being that there was a good chance they wouldn't start a nuke war because they loved their children just as much as anyone else...I think while these Islamic Fundamentalists may love their kids, they think their better reward is in paradise with Allah...so how can you really combat that without talk of genocide?
Anyway, I agree with Kimmy as well, no matter who is president we won't stand for another 9/11.
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Originally posted by *KK*@Sep 3 2004, 01:41 PM I disagree Michael. And the reason that I disagree is because I don't think the American populace would allow it to happen regardless of who wins the Presidency.
Nor do I think that any American plane will ever be jacked again the way they were on 9/11. I think the passengers would take matters into their own hands and overpower any highjackers, after all, they've got no reason not to, after seeing what happened 3 years ago when they tried to cooperate with the fuckers.
KK the American people could not do much about a situation like this.
The only way to prevent things like this is to be pro-active. It is impossible to protect every school, every mall, every hospital, building, stadium, etc....
If something like this happened, I would like to think Kerry if President would respond swifly.... however, I have the feeling tht if Bush is President, he will continue to attack our enemies on THEIR soil, making it tougher to get into the US and attack our children.
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when it happens here again(and it will) the american people wont know about it untill they watch it on the news. It wont be a plane full of people who now know what to look for and how to act. It could be a tanker truck sitting outside a school, building, etc.. it could be shoulder fired missile into a 747 taking off from LAX, it could be container coming in the docks at New york exploding and releasing someting into the air. It could be a *insert tragady here*
The Real deal is they are PLANNING it now, have been and will continue to, for everyone that we or a another country find and breakup there's more in the planning stage.
These folks have only 1 thing in mind. To kill us, can Kerry fight this battle? Can someone who is VERY antiwar(no bullshit, everything he's every done points to that) deal with this WAR?
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Personally I don't think the next terrorist attack in the US will be on a plane for the reasons KK stated - the passengers wouldn't allow the planes to be used as weapons,
But I DO think they will attack again and in reading articles pointing to malls, those make the most sense as far as putting terror into the minds of Americans and hurting the economy. Or as Dan said, through the docks.
Russia's been hit twice now within a week's period of time. It will be interested to see what their next step is.
Originally posted by Peaches@Sep 3 2004, 02:36 PM Personally I don't think the next terrorist attack in the US will be on a plane for the reasons KK stated - the passengers wouldn't allow the planes to be used as weapons,
But I DO think they will attack again and in reading articles pointing to malls, those make the most sense as far as putting terror into the minds of Americans and hurting the economy. Or as Dan said, through the docks.
Russia's been hit twice now within a week's period of time. It will be interested to see what their next step is.
Of coure not. I doubt it will be a plane either.
However we have a lot of soft targets in the US. There are nuclear plants, chemical plants, schools, malls, stadium. Truck bombs, car bombs, suicide bombers.
There are millions of ways to attacks us - it is impossible to protect everything in our country - it would change out entire world. That is why I support proactive measures.
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Originally posted by SykkBoy+Sep 3 2004, 02:55 PM-->
QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Sep 3 2004, 02:55 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 3 2004, 02:41 PM
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Sykk, I am not afraid to defend my country. If there is a draft, and my services are needed I wll be there.
You obvously do not know the military to well. There will not be ANY draft to fight this war.
Now in a showdown with China, this would be another story.
The military does not want a draft - the military does much better with volunteers who are motivated to do a good job.
I thank God that we have young people who are serving this Nation, and are indeed the REAL heros!!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 3 2004, 03:10 PM Sykk, I am not afraid to defend my country. If there is a draft, and my services are needed I wll be there.
You obvously do not know the military to well. There will not be ANY draft to fight this war.
Now in a showdown with China, this would be another story.
The military does not want a draft - the military does much better with volunteers who are motivated to do a good job.
I thank God that we have young people who are serving this Nation, and are indeed the REAL heros!!
see, there are a few things we agree on
don't think that just because I'm aganst the war in Iraq that I am anti-military....I'm more anti-congressmen who send others to fight a war and find ways to keep their own children out of them
;-)
Originally posted by SykkBoy+Sep 3 2004, 03:21 PM-->
QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Sep 3 2004, 03:21 PM)
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 3 2004, 11:59 AM But homegrown terrorists, criminals and such should be prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law.
Tell that good ol' minister deciding what's law in the US that peddling porn isn't "criminal".
I'm sure his daily bible studies with some of his underlings focus on the first amendment and protecting our rights to give guys jerk off material.
Gotta give them credit - they're doing a beautiful job of keeping the herds in such a state of paranoia they can slip those small fundamental religious agenda's right by.
You don't have to dry rape people's rights to fight terrorists. Why can't people see this...it's amazing.
Its said they got 3 terrorists alive, and 27 killed, where so far 9 of them have been identified as arabs, and one from africa. They are believed to have been funded by Wahabist Muslim leader Abu Omar al-Seif - an al-Qaida's liaison in Chechnya.
Thats the information so far, and russian media is not the most fast or correct in the world, so it could change.
But the fact is that this was an direct attack against the most innocent in any society - the children. The gruesome acts done to these children will forever hunt them - their lives will never be the same. The death toll is now over 200 with many children as victims, but this will probably rise in the following days as the serious injured will give up their struggle...
The comment from eroswebmaster about the cold war is correct - anyone who travles know, that basic human nature is good - no matter where we come from on this planet or our political viewpoint, then we want the best for our children and our love ones... however there is a group of people who are no longer of this planet - they lack the basic human nature, they had no problem attacking a school filled with innocent children aged 4-16, then waiting 3 days with no food/water to the children, and when the children fleed, then they shot them in the back... This is not human nature - its not even animal nature, so after seeing this, then I truely do not think we can forsee what sick plans they are making.
I agree with Mike about preventive attacks - no terrorists should feel safe on this planet, but we also need to change the mindset of the muslim world... Islamic leaders must turn their backs on any kind of terror, and we must educate the muslim population. The things I hear and read from islamic sources makes nazi WW2 propoganda to be truthful information, and thats even from muslims living in the westen world... I would not be surprised, if some muslims will spin this so many times, that once it is told, then it will be the fault of the US and jews.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
String me up for being extreme if you will, but I'm of the Non Negotiating school of thought. When you let terror reign your life, you'll never do anything due to that fear.
You adjust yourself to fight the worst in your enemy, that's the only mindset that really works with people like this. It's an oversimplified form of blackmail, and you know that once you start paying blackmail to someone, it never ends, and only gets worse as it progresses.
Originally posted by Rolo@Sep 3 2004, 12:28 PM I just wonder what Putin will do....
with all these acts of terror in Russian
i'm just wondering what will Putin do in regards to Iran and finishing their nuclear reactors and selling them fuel
Originally posted by *KK*@Sep 3 2004, 08:17 PM String me up for being extreme if you will, but I'm of the Non Negotiating school of thought. When you let terror reign your life, you'll never do anything due to that fear.
You adjust yourself to fight the worst in your enemy, that's the only mindset that really works with people like this. It's an oversimplified form of blackmail, and you know that once you start paying blackmail to someone, it never ends, and only gets worse as it progresses.
I could vote for KK in times like this!
I know she would be laying the smackdown on our enemies.
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Rolo, I have been following this all week and watching it get more and more serious. its disgusting to take it to this low but they seem to feel the need to keep going lower to shock us and get our attention.
and this whole kidnapping/hostage situation is being dragged out by the terrorists - obviously they intended for most of their hostages to die but they are doing it slowly like they are trying to get the most media attention out of it or something
the only way to end this is to shoot them on the spot, dead. dont capture them, take them into custody and give them a 'fair trial'. fuck that, why should they get a chance to say or do anything at all ever again?!
one of the men involved in the bali bombings was captured and is currently on trial and the other evening was photographed out 'having coffee' with a police officer
Originally posted by esdmodels@Sep 4 2004, 07:02 PM If they kill others- they are rebels
If they kill us- they are terrorists
Good logic ! realy?
they are referred to as rebels by Russia. it's their term. these are the same people who have been fighting for an independent Chechen State since 1994. i would comment further, but i am sure you have had some time to reflect and realized already how ignorant it was to suggest that it is not in the US interest to refer to those who use terrorism as terrorists.
Originally posted by *KK*@Sep 3 2004, 05:17 PM String me up for being extreme if you will, but I'm of the Non Negotiating school of thought. When you let terror reign your life, you'll never do anything due to that fear.
You adjust yourself to fight the worst in your enemy, that's the only mindset that really works with people like this. It's an oversimplified form of blackmail, and you know that once you start paying blackmail to someone, it never ends, and only gets worse as it progresses.
I am often awestruck at the notion that those who willfully murder unarmed women and children want an independent state. Even the Taliban had the sense to tone it down until they got power as even the most brutal and oppressive leaders of the past did. Usually, such groups get rally support by claiming to represent the interest of the people or with the promises of a better life... Imagine what state would be created by people who feel a valid and legitimate way to express their views is by murdering 100's of children.
JR, in their eyes, they are exploiting our own eagerness to consume news and disasters by getting the attention of the media.
its working. as long as cnn keeps running the footage it will continue - it will just vary who the bad guy is.
but what happens when members of our own society start to view this type of behavior as normal? the whole world becomes a warzone where common criminals blow up entire buildings just to get a spot on the evening news.
the hatred many nations feel for us is starting to brew in our own society - theirs has been brewing for 25+ years (or 1000's?). how long before we are just like them with bombings every few weeks?
there's enough angry mikes in the world that I could see a bunch of guys with that 'go get em' attitude running around the streets with guns pulling foreigners they didn't like or were paranoid about out of their homes and putting them in prison camps ... again.
the death toll from this is horrific. How could someone become so angry & twisted that they take the lives of that many children.
These were not only chechyan cowards, there were islamic arabic fuckers among the captured or killed. Anyone who have visitied islamic fundamentalist sites knows that Chechnya is known battle ground for islamists, they want to turn Chechnya into another Afghanistan, so it makes perfect sense why al-Qaeda is present in the region suppoting the mujahideen, and why they seek confrontation.
Al-Qaeda is not like "traditional" terrorist organizations. It is not defined by a particular conflict, and it is not sponsorsed by a political state. Instead, al-Qaeda operates as a "franchise" - financial, logistical support, and also name recognition to terrorist groups in Chechnya, Iraq, Saudia-Arabia, USA, EU, Russia, Philippines, Algeria, Eritrea, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Kashmir. Local groups may act in the name of al-Qaeda to help their reputation - even if they do not receive support from the organization.
Al-Qaedaīs ideology and goals is to "clean" all Muslim nations of western influence (from politcal, military, knowledge to everyday culture). They also wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, a single Islamic nation rulled by Khalifa (successor of the Prophet Muhammad) - according to islamic text this can be done by force/war.
Those who did the killing on the school might not have been handpicked by Osama Bin Laden himself, however his terrorist organization Al-Qaeda were surely part of it - islamic arabic fighters do not travle to Chechnya without someone taking care of the logistic, training etc. and "soldiers" (bad taste in my mouth as I write this - they are not even worthy to be called soldiers) do not pick their targets - generals do that... and all exile chechyan politicians knows that killing children infront of the world would not benefit their fight... the only ones who will benefit from this are those who are already at war with world - the islamists.
When Russia reacts, then islamists knows that it could spread to not only the region, but to all Muslim nations - they seek confrontation... to use playground scenario, then they will spit in our face, and when we beat them up, then they hope the other muslim kids will jump us...
It was not "rebels", it was muslims fuckers on a suicide mission - in a few days/weeks their faces will probably be on every islamic websites where they celebrate their "martyrdom".... killing children to get into heaven is only something fundamentalist islam can accept.
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by grimm@Sep 4 2004, 06:37 PM these are chechyan rebels, not al quada
putins problem, not ours
All exile chechyan politicians have condemned this - they know that killing children do not serve any purpose, which will help Chechnya - only Al-Qaeda supports can connect killing of children with something good.
Al-Qaeda's ideology is often called "Jihadism" - the basic belief of Jihadism is that all non-Jihadists (including other muslim ideologies) are "Kaffir" (infidels) and deserve to be killed - including even children.
Although Jihadism is against all "common" Islamic religious thought, then it has its roots in two of the "modern" Sunni thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (wahhabism) and Sayyid Qutb (qutbism). Both tried to "clean" islam so it would be in its "original" form.
The only people who can see anything good/holy in killing of children are Al-Qaeda or Jihadists... This was a direct attack on children - it had NO military purpose - it was a 100% statement/message - that the children of the world are now valid targets for terrorism... this is why USA, EU, Russia and all other countries in the world must act together against this!
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
some pics more
if you can donate some money for this people, please post here or in my ICQ 73407079 . Russian AWMs
make a Fund. And we send our money ONLY DIRECT to victim famiys.
All public funds in Russia can steal money. We want help directly!
Thanks.
Originally posted by grimm+Sep 4 2004, 09:37 PM-->
QUOTE (grimm @ Sep 4 2004, 09:37 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 3 2004, 10:08 AM
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Don't fuck with Russians. They don't play by our rules. They're already preparing to deny the war crimes charges that'll arise from raping and slaughtering a few towns as we post.
Besides, kerry's already whacked off a few vietcong. The only thing bush has whacked off is his coke habit and to his latest edition of tranny quarterly.
Somone who calls guys who made their living mowing down entire villages his "band of brothers" aint gonna worry about a few camel jockies getting caught in the crossfire.
Wanna fight terrrorism...put a killer in office.
Oh yea...in case you forgot about your new pal:
just a friendly reminder from your new neocon to be supreme court.
Originally posted by aeon@Sep 6 2004, 12:41 PM Don't fuck with Russians. They don't play by our rules. They're already preparing to deny the war crimes charges that'll arise from raping and slaughtering a few towns as we post.
Besides, kerry's already whacked off a few vietcong. The only thing bush has whacked off is his coke habit and to his latest edition of tranny quarterly.
Somone who calls guys who made their living mowing down entire villages his "band of brothers" aint gonna worry about a few camel jockies getting caught in the crossfire.
Wanna fight terrrorism...put a killer in office.
Oh yea...in case you forgot about your new pal:
just a friendly reminder from your new neocon to be supreme court.
Have a nice day
And here I thought Kerry only shot at un-armed villagers......
Kerry is a pussy.
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Originally posted by JR@Sep 6 2004, 09:05 AM thats like saying exhiled "afghani politicians"
Well, with the current situation in Chechnya, then I think most are in "exile", "underground", or "dead"... when Russia is done, then I wonder if there will be a place called Chechnya - maybe Stalin did the right thing in 1944?
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
In this situation, it's so easy to forget about what causes situations like this. Some people reading what i have to say will instantly jump to the conclusion that i am being apologetic, but i'm not. There is no justification for what they have done. You cannot defend it. But saying all that; if the Russians hadn't been committing attrocities in Chechnya for all these years and had allowed them to form their own nation, then this shit would not be happening right now.
Originally posted by chodadog@Sep 7 2004, 12:35 AM In this situation, it's so easy to forget about what causes situations like this. Some people reading what i have to say will instantly jump to the conclusion that i am being apologetic, but i'm not. There is no justification for what they have done. You cannot defend it. But saying all that; if the Russians hadn't been committing attrocities in Chechnya for all these years and had allowed them to form their own nation, then this shit would not be happening right now.
i hope you die a painful and horrible death while your family watches on TV too.
first... Chechnya did get its independence after the first war. Russia was one of the few to recognize it.
second, it STILL REMAINED one of the most lawless places on earth and continued to get worse... not better, still full of murderers, kidnappers, terrorists, warlords and was still a problem, still a safe haven for criminals and terrorists and still a threat to the neighboring republics and Russia... and finally they decided to start raiding neighboring Dagestan and other areas and the subsequent second war began.
fuck you and and your "all these terrorists need is a hug" bullshit. you know nothing about what you are talking about. i have lived in Russia for most of the last 7-8 years and have watched this shit play out almost since day 1. watched the watched both wars, watched the terrorism, watched the executions/torture of soldiers, watched the kindappings/beheadings of teachers, journalists and aid workers, watched Chechnya become a major hub for narcotics coming into Russia, terrorist safe haven and watched them continue to act like some of the most brutal and primitive people on the planet and continue their quest for "more".
i hope next time you are the one that gets kidnapped and held for ransom for $1,000,000.00 while you are trying to feed kids in Grozny and your family gets a nice video of you getting your head sawed off while you scream and beg... then we will all stand over your corpse and debate "cause and effect" relationships, morality and right and wrong.
And here I thought Kerry only shot at un-armed villagers......
Kerry is a pussy.
Just what do you base this on Mike? What 'fighting' has your monkey boy hero EVER done? Did he thump someone for stealing his coke spoon? Have 'fight club' meetings in the basements of the S&Ls he was bankrupting? Beat the shit out of some trees who were fucking with his timber plans? Bitch slapped an owl up there in Alaska?
Face it Mike, of the two... Bush has by far shown the only time he wants to fight is when he's not going to get hurt and the deck is stacked his way... Maybe if you'd served you'd understand why Kerry is more of a man than Bush ever will be... No wonder you like Bush, you appear to be armchair worrior just like Dubya is...
That said, glad to hear you and others weathered Frances's visit ok!
i know russians are brutal. i know many people who faught in chechnya. chechens are many times more brutal than russians are. my point was simply that in pushing your extreme liberal ideology about the inherent good in everyone, you were a little short on facts and logic.
the fact is Russia gave them their independence and things spiraled rapidly downhill with warlords and criminal bosses at the helm and they wasted no time in becoming the biggest threat in the region. so to say "they are only bad because Russians made them that way by not giving them independence" to rationalize or explain the attempted murder 1200 people... mostly kids, is not only factually wrong, but a pretty fucking sick and twisted view of the world and how things are.
shoot me your name and address so i can buy you a ticket to go help all the chechen refugees. hopefully, you will last longer than the typical month or so that it takes to get kidnapped, ransomed and then murdered by these wonderful specimens of humanity on which you place no blame... and you might live long enough to make a difference in some kids life who will grow up to dream about watching you, the infidel, be slaughtered.
google - chechnya + ransom
google - chechen + ransom
09-03-2004
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