Kerry is a moron.

[Mike AI]

it is a stereotype, of the kooky vietnam vet exagerating their war experiences in Vietnam.

Kerry is determined to fight on this issue, and it does not look like its going to turn out well.

Interesting article, from someone who wanted to be left out of the debate, but has reluctantly come forward to clear up issues.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak...s-novak27.html

It will be pretty funny to see the Kerry campaign collapse because of this. Why pick a fight over an issue like this? Does Kerry really remember history different?

[dantheman]

you know what's pathatic..........A freaking 1st lieutenant with ONLY 4 months incountry sitting in front of congress basically spewing hearsay and BS that there's no way in fucking hell he knew personally anything about. ALL to advance his CAREER and personal agenda. Blows my mind!

[Mike AI]

Kerry may be digging a hole he cannot get out of.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect...ws-lips27.html


Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB



In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon



B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations



But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?



Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

[Winetalk.com]

Mike, good find,
I always nsuspected that Kerry never even been to Vietnam!

it's people like you and me who risk their lives in Iraq daily and not somebody like Kerry!



do you feel better now?

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Aug 27 2004, 08:36 PM
Mike, good find,
I always nsuspected that Kerry never even been to Vietnam!

it's people like you and me who risk their lives in Iraq daily and not somebody like Kerry!



do you feel better now?

I hate it when I agree with Serge ...

[Mike AI]

Serge I think the absynth has finally gotten to you!

[Rolo]

Well, we know that military skeletons, will come and hunt Kerry if he is President... lets just hope that the republicans do not turn this into another "ken starr out of proportions" case against the president - if Kerry is elected...

[sarettah]

I think it is pretty normal for people to exaggerate "the good old days".

There were actually only about 500,000 people at woodstock, but if you counted the folks that claim they were at woodstock that number would be at least several million if not in the tens of millions.

I know folks who remember where they were the day John Kennedy was shot who weren't even alive when it happened.

It has been my experience that people who have actually experienced the "horrors" of war do not like to talk about it much. Those that brag about the super spiffy heroic deeds they did usually did not do as much as those that never talk about their experience; and those that claim to have been the bravest most ferocious folks the vietcong ever saw never got closer to battle then the rear lines, serving meals to the brass. But who wants to tell their kids, "yeah I was there, serving food to the admirals. It was a tough job, but someone had to do it."

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 27 2004, 09:40 PM
Serge I think the absynth has finally gotten to you!

this is a priceless retort! I always use one of:
1) you are drunk
2) your mother wearing combat boots
3) lifeguard wasn't on duty at your gene pool
when I run out of amunition and don't have anything to retort with.

I am truly glad that here, on Oprano, at the "No spin zone",
we have 100% track record of dismissing ALL propaganda spewed by Democratic party!

I bet ANYBODY,
in less than 15 years we'll be able to dismiss propagandas dissiminated by ALL parties!
We are Oprano-
"The Work in Progress!"

[Rolo]

Originally posted by sarettah@Aug 27 2004, 06:53 PM
It has been my experience that people who have actually experienced the "horrors" of war do not like to talk about it much.

My granddad and grandmother were in the resistance in Europe during WW2 - my granddad was captured, and send to a nazi "work camp"... he died less than 1 year after the war due to illness, however my grandmother never told much about what she and my granddad had experienced during WW2 - just hints, small comments every few years/decades... which could be anything from harmless daily life stories to graphic comments which left you with a changed picture of your "cookie baking grandmother", like when she told about how their group in a period did brutal assassinations on possible snitches to scare off potential new snitches I´m sure she has not told everything to spare us from the experience and feelings she must be carrying around - like she told me once "it was another time, and the world must move on"...

[grimm]

armchair soldiers hold a lot of credibility in my book

[Mike AI]

Serge, I am not saying that the republicans are not issuing their own spin. I am not a huge fan of Bush. I find it amusing that Kerry cannot pull away in polls from a Preisdent that is more hated by the general public,

I am laughing how Kerry continues to stumble over this issue. Kerry made the whole convnetion about his war record - REPORTING FOR DUTY.

The problem is, he has embelished his record, and people are now calling him out. Instead of letting things slide, he keeps pushing the issue.

Ever see the video of Kerry testifying about war crimes in front of Congress??

If it makes you feel better Serge, I will make fun of Bush more often as well.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by grimm@Aug 28 2004, 09:36 AM
armchair soldiers hold a lot of credibility in my book

Of course you do Grimm, that is why you are a democrat!

[aeon]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 28 2004, 06:45 AM
Serge, I am not saying that the republicans are not issuing their own spin. I am not a huge fan of Bush. I find it amusing that Kerry cannot pull away in polls from a Preisdent that is more hated by the general public

A divided country might possibly be the result of hippy crack addicted neocon's finding every excuse in their narcotic induced tax break wet dreams to justify the prodigal son's holy ghost agenda & them whacky lefty's secretly wishing gerogie sr. actively supported third term abortion back in the day.

You won't see many reagan democrats or vice versa with the wonderful job jr's done to polarize the US and rest of the world. Scare the simpletons with the armageddon of the evil doers coming at anytime...a modern day feeding frenzy for his religious base.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by aeon+Aug 28 2004, 10:08 AM-->