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Based on your date bait, not sure what you are fishing for Serge...
Vietnam was issue before Truman made Hiroshima and Nagasaki glass in '45. Ongoing French clusterfuck from the end of WWII and through Korean War with ever increasing involvement via monetary aid, training and occupation.
Originally posted by Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?
Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Jun 7 2004, 08:28 PM Based on your date bait, not sure what you are fishing for Serge...
Vietnam was issue before Truman made Hiroshima and Nagasaki glass in '45. Ongoing French clusterfuck from the end of WWII and through Korean War with ever increasing involvement via monetary aid, training and occupation.
I am not baiting...can you imagine that I REALLY DON'T KNOW??????
This is very nutshell but if you are interested in starting point for more research into events and interactions then will give you a launchpad for topics to dig into...
Redneck cliff notes version...
Japan fucks Vietnam.
We fuck Japan.
Japan withdraws from Vietnam and French make play for it.
This pisses off the Chineese and the Vietminh.
French continue to do what French do best, pissing everyone off and getting asses kicked.
US and Soviets decide to turn it into a proxy fight as French scamper away to build relations with some Arab nations.
McArthur was not fired for wanting to fight the Chinese. He was entitled to want to fight anybody he wanted to.
McArthur was fired for forgetting who the Commander in Chief was while angling to make a run for the job himself. McArthur was fired for attempting to formulate policy on the battlefield, and for a policy that probably would NOT have defeated the Chinese (may have moved the standoff to a point different from the 37th parallel, though), but probably WOULD have killed a million or so Americans and moved the Berlin Wall to the beaches of Normady.
I personally think Truman should have shot the cocksucker, just like Nixon should have shot the JCS Chairman caught spying on him.
Remember the whole "civilian control of the military" thing? (I didn't say you had to like it ... just acknowledge that it is the system we live under).
As far as the Vietnam war goes ... , I think the start of the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam was should INCLUDE the period when we fought the North Vietnamese with French proxies (we paid for it ... we ought to claim it).
Whole lotta folks got us into that clusterfuck ... liberals and conservatives, Catholics, etc. In the early days it was the opinion of many on the right who thought it was a dumb thing to do; they only came to support the war once U.S. force was committted.
BTW, XXXPhoto - the French had been fucking Vietnam for 300-400 years before the Japanese came in; so when the Japanese left, it was an attempt to keep it. We didn't do a hell of a lot better than the French, now, did we? Remember, too, that the French actually understood that the nature of the war was not "Communism" vs "freedom", but imperialism vs. nationalism. We never did quite get that.
Last edited by PornoDoggy at Jun 7 2004, 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 09:27 PM I personally think Truman should have shot the cocksucker, just like Nixon should have shot the JCS Chairman caught spying on him.
PD - it tickles the hell out of me to read you posting that
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If you mean the use of "cocksucker", I seem to be suffering from "Deadwood" syndrome on Mondays.
If you are referring to my thinking that Nixon should have shot Moorer, or that Truman should have shot McArthur, or that North and Poindexter should just now be eligible for parole from Leavanworth - I'm damned serious.
Frankly, I've always thought that Iran-Contra was a more serious offense than Watergate; and I think the so-called Radford Affair, where the JCS were caught spying on the White House, was even more serious than either of them.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 09:49 PM If you mean the use of "cocksucker", I seem to be suffering from "Deadwood" syndrome on Mondays.
If you are referring to my thinking that Nixon should have shot Moorer, or that Truman should have shot McArthur, or that North and Poindexter should just now be eligible for parole from Leavanworth - I'm damned serious.
Frankly, I've always thought that Iran-Contra was a more serious offense than Watergate; and I think the so-called Radford Affair, where the JCS were caught spying on the White House, was even more serious than either of them.
Just reading you posting Nixon should have shot anyone tickles me
and I agree about JCS/Thomas Moorer but and it makes me sick to say this - with Nixon being the type of president and man he was how would it have looked if that came out then?
Much less how the military would have looked then when they were already under attack at home - and I know that doesn't excuse a thing
and Watergate was about the fucking stupidest crime ever committed
as for when the Vietnam war started with regards to American involvement
JR has a good point with 1954, when aid started from America to Vietnam
also a point can be made for 1959 when the first American casualties occur
as well as 1965 as the first American combat soldiers arrive
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 06:27 PM Remember, too, that the French actually understood that the nature of the war was not "Communism" vs "freedom", but imperialism vs. nationalism. We never did quite get that.
PD,
I never claimed US didn't step all over it's collective dick, was just trying to show examples of events that occured prior to the dates Serge listed.
Yes the French started fucking with area in 1500s and 'created' Indochina from 1850s-1900 there abouts... This doesn't preclude Japan from having diddled the area prior to that... (or along with the French during that timeframe)... Much more is written on Korea-Japan history but if you've good source for the region would be happy to read it...
Got the library dismantled while we paint the room but Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow is the first one that comes to mind, and it's pretty good for the period up to the U.S. war. His coverage of the U.S. war has been criticized, particularly by some on the right, but it's not too bad. I don't know if later editions have been updated with information that may not have been available to him when he wrote it in the 70s.
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Originally posted by Vick@Jun 7 2004, 10:13 PM Just reading you posting Nixon should have shot anyone tickles me
and I agree about JCS/Thomas Moorer but and it makes me sick to say this - with Nixon being the type of president and man he was how would it have looked if that came out then?
Much less how the military would have looked then when they were already under attack at home - and I know that doesn't excuse a thing
and Watergate was about the fucking stupidest crime ever committed
as for when the Vietnam war started with regards to American involvement
JR has a good point with 1954, when aid started from America to Vietnam
also a point can be made for 1959 when the first American casualties occur
as well as 1965 as the first American combat soldiers arrive
Well, now, I think you know that I believe they should have shot the cocksucker Nixon too ... but he was the President of the United States. Any swinging dick in uniform who was spying on him should have also been shot. Agnew should have been muzzled, then shot. Mitchell should have been shot. Haldeman and Erlicman and Dean (oh my!) should have been shot. Butterfield should have been given a medal - then shot.
Kissinger, however ... he should be sent to Chile, or maybe Timor. Let those cocksuckers shoot him.
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PD - what are you going to shoot Nixon for? he he he
I'll agree to shooting Martha Mitchell, would have saved a lot of trouble. At the very least a muzzle and tape up her hands. While you're at it kick John Mitchell in the balls, I believe you would find them in Martha's purse
Keep going PD - you're on a roll now -
damn execution squad - after the revolution all you cocksuckers will be shot
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Originally posted by Buff@Jun 7 2004, 10:43 PM He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.
Uhhh ... at what cost could he have beaten them? How many American lives would it have cost?
300,000 of them kicked his happy ass all the way down the Korean peninsula. There were a lot more waiting at home. Korea seriously weakened our defenses in Europe, and an assult on China would have probably brought us into conflict with the Soviets. They DID have nukes, and if they'd seen us going at China would have felt forced to get involved, fearing that they would have been next. The consequences for Western Europe would have been devestating, and predictable. The possibility of a nuclear attack on U.S. soil - remember, we were far more vulnerable to bombers back then - woud have to be considered.
And as much as I hate to remind you that public opinion matters in a democracy ... there was little stomach in the U.S. for that kind of war.
He was the Commander in Chief of the forces in Japan that were totally unprepared for anything more rigorous than a full-dress parade when war broke out. He disobeyed orders by pushing too close to the border, and he either had an intelligence staff that was totally inept, or he falsified intelligence reports he was sending back to Washington about the size and the presence of the Chicoms he was encountering.
I wouldn't have let the S.O.B. run a Boy Scout hike ... much less engage in a nuclear war with China.
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The first actual battle between American and Vietnamese soldiers was documented in the Mel Gibson movie "We Were Soldiers" - that was 1964-1965ish, however there were lots of different factors that caused it.
like the JFK assasination by the CIA to instate Lyndon Johnson as president who was not anti-war like Kennedy.
Ho Chi Minh Creates Provisional Government: Following the surrender of Japan to Allied forces, Ho Chi Minh and his People's Congress create the National Liberation Committee of Vietnam to form a provisional government. Japan transfers all power to Ho's Vietminh.
Ho Declares Independence of Vietnam
British Forces Land in Saigon, Return Authority to French
First American Dies in Vietnam: Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey, head of American OSS mission, was killed by Vietminh troops while driving a jeep to the airport. Reports later indicated that his death was due to a case of mistaken identity -- he had been mistaken for a Frenchman.
06-07-2004
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