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i have no ownership in porngraph sarretah and i never have. not even in the r-n sense of the word. other than that you're analysis is right on. we have to test the install that way because we dont mark our toolbar as "safe for scripting" so we dont expose users to any potential holes in our work.
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Originally posted by Hooper@Apr 29 2004, 02:07 PM i have no ownership in porngraph sarretah and i never have. not even in the r-n sense of the word. other than that you're analysis is right on. we have to test the install that way because we dont mark our toolbar as "safe for scripting" so we dont expose users to any potential holes in our work.
Hey
Ok, if porngraph is not your counter (because that is what it looked like the gfyers were yakkiing about), do you have a counter that they are accusing you of using to do all these dirty deeds ? If so, what is it and would you mind me doing the same sort of nosing around I was just doing ?
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Apr 29 2004, 02:27 PM Sare, the counter CHANGED the practice YESTERDAY after the outcry from webmasters.
you are one day short
;-)))
lol...I kind of figured that part out...........
Hooper..........
Ok, I went and decided to give this all a little benefit of the doubt.
So. I went to Isearch and purposely installed the toolbar.
First of all. You really do not reveal anywhere what yoiu are installing. No list of features. No agreement, nothing. I would think for legal purposes on both sides (you and the user) you would want at least some sort of standard software disclaimer indicating what is being installed.
I pulled up my file settings and registry settings before and after the install. From what I can see it installs toolbar.dll which is referenced as a search hook, a browser helper object and a toolbar. It also writes an extra context menu entry that calls for initial.cab to be loaded from isearch.
I downloaded initial.cab and did not find anything screwy there.
The search bar itself is not in my mind at all impressive. Nothing new or great there for the user. There is a piss off point because upon install, your toolbar makes the toolbar menu in IE inaccessible.
Ok, so then I went and checked to see if there was an uninstall option in my software removal settings in the control panel. Noper, not there. I went to isearch and downloaded the uninstaller that you have there. It did not uninstall anything, came back with a message that it could not uninstall. Since I had not rebooted since the install, I went ahead and rebooted and then ran the uninstall. No good again.
I then went in and manually removed it from my system, set my registry back etcetra.
Only trace of it at this point is that my toolbar menu in IE is still unaccessable.
it was/maybe a forced download from porngraph, it self installs, it has to be installed, it doesn't uninstall, it uninstalls with help from the FAQ, there is no dialog box when installing, there is a dialog box and or disclosure when installing
Where's the investigative reporter?
Oh fuck it, if it makes $
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Originally posted by Hooper@Apr 29 2004, 03:11 PM click the "help my menubar is locked" faq and follow those instructions.
already did it, I had seen that ref in my google search for isearch toolbar....fixed it up.
So.. My whole reason for all of this was to see if there is creedence in what is being said here and on GFY...
Forst of all, if you do a google on "isearch toolbar" you will get a bit over 10,000 results, most of which seem to be complaints about it, how to remove it, installed without my permission, all that.
Hooper, you claim that "The uninstall is easy and automatic.". This is not a true statement. First of all, the uninstall should be able to be reached through the software removal option on the windows control panel, it is not. Secondly, the uninstall requires a return trip to the site (I did not check inside the toolbar itself to see if a link was there because I already knew where the uninstall instructions and download were). The uninstaller that I downloaded from the isearch website did not work. I had to remove a dll file and several registry entries to remove the software then I had to go download the unlocking entries for the registry as a seperate download. While this was all relatively painless for me, for the average surfer/computer user, this would have been a many hour exercise.
If your software is legit, then make it easy to uninstall, what are you worried about ?
As I previously stated, there was no place that indicated what I was installing with the exception of a brief explanation on the website and the fact that the download file was labeled as a "Free Popup Blocker". I did not agree to any terms and conditions, I did not see any feature list. It was basically a blind download and one that if I did not have your ear on it, I would not have done it. Again, if you are wanting to be/look legit I would state the features and exactly what is going to be downloaded on to the machine. Get the surfers expilicit agreement to make the changes and you are that much more on the side of legality. When a case of spyware/malware/adware auto install finally gets into court, the argument that you downloaded the program so you therefore agreed to everything will not stand up.
On the plus side for you, all certficates seemed in order, I could tell who to complain to if I needed to, so that was all good.
The locking of the toolbars is an unnecessary "piss off the surfer" item. On the FAQ for the uninstall on the isearch site http://toolbar.isearch.com/uninstall/ you state "If you would prefer to maintain control of your Internet Explorer toolbar it's as easy as downloading this file, selecting "Open", and selecting "Yes" when asked if you would like to merge the data. After doing this, close internet explorer and re-open it.". Well, the fact of the matter is that you never asked me if I wanted to maintain control of my toolbars and of course I do. Downloading software does not give the software owners/authors/distributors the right to hijack my machine in any way, shape or form. Doesn't matter if the software is form you, gator or microsoft. Making changes without notifying me and giving me the option to not make the change is a hijack. (and yes, I know microsoft and windows update does this all the time and I have issues about that too... Just because johnny down the street jumps off the bridge doesn't mean you should).
Anyway, long long story short. I found the software to be riding the edge a little bit. It des not seem to be a malevolent package, it si not what I would call spyware, it is more like an adware package than a spyware package. There are some issues that could be easily addressed that would make it much more acceptable to the general population and would make it appear much more legit.
If you are advocating (by ignoring, paying or assisting) affiliates to do an blind auto load of the software, than you should be shot. I would hope that you are treating incidents like this as any sponsor would treat incidents of cheating and are wiping the affiliates account out.
The porngraph download was accomplished, apparently, using an IE hole that allowed a chm file to be downloaded which then launched an auotinstaller. This is a scumware/malware/spyware tactic. If you stand behind your product as you seem to be claiming then I would hope that you would take porngraph to task very publically and loudly for this behaviour.
sure it'd be nice if there was a gigantic "remove me" button on the toolbar, but it would also be nice if sponsors didnt have consoles, if microsoft just upgraded you to the new os for free, and if used car sales men were honest. but we live in the real world and we're not trying to be "nice". I want you to keep my toolbar.
as far as "make features more obvious, make terms more clear"... you went to my website. you looked at the description of my toolbar and you clicked "Install". Caveat Emptor!
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Originally posted by Hooper@Apr 29 2004, 04:04 PM as far as "make features more obvious, make terms more clear"... you went to my website. you looked at the description of my toolbar and you clicked "Install". Caveat Emptor!
Isn't that pretty much the same argument Crescent used when they ended up in front of the FTC the first time ?
I think that one cost them 100mill and their websites............
I was not trying to be attacking.. I was merely offering up some ideas. There are very few times that it pays off to look shadier than you need to.
As for the giant button... Don't see where I reccomended that. I recommended adding it to the control panel software list. You have the option through that to run any uninstall program you want, you can at the point they are trying to remove it have the option of trying to convince them to keep it (another contact/sales opportunity) or collect data on why they want to uninstall it, etc.
I thought I was being pretty fair in my assesment, sorry I hit your sarcasm button. Guess I will keep my comments to myself and let the Hooper fan club have the thread back.
Originally posted by Hooper@Apr 29 2004, 04:38 PM lol, i was merely responding to you sarettah, dont go off and cry.
Hooper, Sarettah is the only person who has bothered to give you the benefit of the doubt and has obviously spent some time looking at every 'feature' you are arguing with webmasters about.
He gave you a very fair summary with some reasons why people think this download is dodgy. His suggestions would not cause you problems, they would solve some of the valid concerns from webmasters & surfers.
So instead of using this opportunity to explain yourself or even to learn a little something about how to improve your product from someone who isn't attacking you, you continue with your sarcastic arrogance??!?
what a dumbass ...
Quote:
Gonzo, if you have 17 years in IT experience you should have had the time to pull your head out of your ass long enough to re-read my explanation of the difference between spyware and adware. Talk to cj about hidden billing and lifetime memberships. If you'd like to bring that up, she knows more about it than almost anybody.
I know more about hidding billing than YOU?! hahahahahahhahahahahahhahaa now who is taking liberties with the facts?!?!? YOUR billing options have shocked even some of the aussies so watch those stones mr glass house. isn't that why you are hammering this toolbar project? to pay for your chargeback problems for your past years of creative billing?!??!!?
If you hadn't noticed, the company I worked for which crossbilled surfers went from $80mil a quarter in earnings to jack shit in a month .... & the people who run that are a whole lot smarter than you!
The more money you earn hoops, the bigger the fines & debts are - and people get a lot more pissed off when you've cost them a million rather than a few bucks
It doesn't matter what sarcastic comments you respond with about my business practices Hooper, what I'm doing with my projects is pretty darn obvious & I'm happy to answer ANY questions, as always. I don't need to gloss over my answers with lies and sarcasm to protect my business model - unless you think a 30 minute free preview is dodgy?! Isn't that one of your billing models i've copied?!
worry about yourself right now hooper, & take my advice - learn from other people's mistakes
FUCK YOU INCREDIFIND
I'm up to about 12 registry entries/dll files spread throughout the computer & still searching.
i don't care what level of self installing product you run, THEY ALL SUCK. STAY OFF MY GOD DAMN COMPUTER!!!! I don't need 404's redirected to a pay per click search engine!! :grrr:
Originally posted by cj@Apr 29 2004, 08:15 PM aware update
FUCK YOU INCREDIFIND
I'm up to about 12 registry entries/dll files spread throughout the computer & still searching.
i don't care what level of self installing product you run, THEY ALL SUCK. STAY OFF MY GOD DAMN COMPUTER!!!! I don't need 404's redirected to a pay per click search engine!! :grrr:
As this shit gets more common, it may open the door for Nutscrape to make a bit of a come back.
I keep ActiveX locked down and Norton scanning for scripts and manage to swat most attempts to fuck my system. However, I'm seriously considering starting to run Firefox for surfing unfamiliar sites instead of IE.
Hellpuppy, i'm running pretty good protection but a few times i've been tricked with options like:
ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO CANCEL?
YES / NO
where the yes actually means 'yes i want to download this file' .... but most times its just there like magic. I've been surfing a lot of shit sites lately like celebrity webrings and free wallpaper download sites etc
I dread using nutscrape, my whole design formatting relies on stylesheets LOL
I guess I will disable activeX & use my other pc for surfing ;-(
Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Apr 29 2004, 08:46 PM Nutscrape has gotten MUCH better at rendering pages to look same as MSIE. Most style sheets play nice.
But I'd hate to have to start coding for multiple browsers again....those days were a pain in the fucking ass...
At least we can have faith that Microsoft is jumping in to stop people like hooper from monopolizing their monopoly LOL
04-29-2004
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