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Old 04-13-2004   #1
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Here are pages from the tour we discussed on the radio show. According to the designer 2 more were promised with galleries. Im sure she can provide more info.

You decide!!!
Deadbeat or dirtball design?

http://www.gonzoland.com/paythebillbitch/
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Old 04-13-2004   #2
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I would have been disappointed with that ... not for the money, just fullstop.

http://www.privatecelebrity.com/beckhams - this took me 4 or 5 hours last night. *IF* I sold this, I would charge $500 - $700 with a few banners thrown in.

There's very little sell text, very few photos or information that show what is IN the site ...

But if a client doesn't tell you what they want, but just expects you to think up an idea all by yourself (despite that its their niche) and then expects you to know how to sell it, then you are asking too much for $350.

This is why sharky & mikeW charge more than $350 for a frontend ... if you want to be a tightass and try to get something cheap while being lazy at the same time, you'll get what you pay for!
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Old 04-13-2004   #3
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Yeah that is not too bad for $350
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Old 04-13-2004   #4
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Hmmm 3 pages, maybe if that is what I specified


Sorry I missed Oprano Radio tonight

Can someone please fill me in on what I missed?
What was the dirt?
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Old 04-14-2004   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vick@Apr 13 2004, 11:02 PM
Hmmm 3 pages, maybe if that is what I specified


Sorry I missed Oprano Radio tonight

Can someone please fill me in on what I missed?
What was the dirt?
you missed me talking dirty :P
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Old 04-14-2004   #6
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I like CJ's design better.

Can I get a free hat?
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Old 04-14-2004   #7
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I would have given her a chance for a do over, but I have to admit, I wouldn't have paid for those exact pages. There's a mispelled word on two of the pages. The design itself looks OK. Maybe $200-250 for those 3 pages and $350 for 5. The client should have allowed the designer to get things worked on, IMHO.
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Old 04-14-2004   #8
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I've said it before, I'll say it again....

When doing a deal with someone, make damned sure everyone knows exactly what is expected before you start....

In the case of a designer, check the portfolio, ask for samples. And explain exactly what you want. You're not going to get the same level of design and experience you get from Sharky, Mike or Webinc if you're only going to pay $350 for a tour.
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Old 04-14-2004   #9
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I think the portfolio that was given can be found at
http://www.ladymischief.com/
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Old 04-14-2004   #10
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If the designer had to think up the whole thing herself, with the only definition being what you read on the air tonight, then most definitely it is worth the price.

If the client gives very little direction and does not define out what they want then they are at the mercy of whatever the designer comes up with.

imho of course.
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Old 04-14-2004   #11
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a page of straight to join linking thumbnails would work 10x better than that "tour" and this is not a guess
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Old 04-14-2004   #12
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You get what you pay for in life..BUT ..who is the 80's rock star ?

Is it the singer from Poison or one of Motley crue?
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Old 04-14-2004   #13
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I don't see anything special about it; looks like an AVS tour.
I didn't get to listen tonight though, so I don't know what the requested description of it was. P'raps it was just what she ordered.
I think it's too heavy, thumbs are too small, doesn't show enough action to get you interested, and the middle page could be eliminated completely and merged onto the 1st or 3rd page (make them longer).

CJ's would definitely convert better - Beckham... mmmmmmm yummy
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Old 04-14-2004   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by cj+Apr 13 2004, 11:17 PM-->
QUOTE (cj @ Apr 13 2004, 11:17 PM)
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Old 04-14-2004   #15
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not just once ... but twice ...


THAT WILL TEACH YOU TO MISS AN EPISODE OF OPRANO RADIO!!!

I think today's show was fun - and our audio is getting better every week ;-)

Carrie, i'm just doing the member feature now for this HEADLINE tour - there's about a hundred pics of the 2 of them together since '97 - its pretty funny looking at the changes in his hairstyles etc!! man he's hot



one of my fave's ;-)
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Old 04-14-2004   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie@Apr 14 2004, 02:24 AM
I didn't get to listen tonight though, so I don't know what the requested description of it was. P'raps it was just what she ordered.
The definition we heard was basically "here's some pics to use, make me something"

The problem was lack of definition.
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Old 04-14-2004   #17
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I'm really sorry I missed the show! My wife's not feeling well, so I had to take care of her.

I'd love to be apart of another show on this feature... There are quite a few deadbeat design customers in this industry!

As for this design... I think it's worth $350. Regardless, if the client isn't happy, then a redesign should be done.... but the client refusing to pay??? That's wrong. work was done.
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Old 04-14-2004   #18
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I dont think its worth the money,
but it all depends on what the designer was told.

If a redesign cant be agreed upon,
then maybe 1/2 the cost should be paid instead.
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Old 04-14-2004   #19
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Regardless of the agreed price the design should be reworked until it
is something the client is happy with, in my world it is called customer service. ( footnote:- some customers DONOT deserve it, however I believe in karma )

If the client did not accept delivery and there was no deposit paid
mark it down to experiance and next time get -

1. 50% deposit
2. Written specs that everyone signs off on

Just my 2c
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Old 04-14-2004   #20
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Adult design customers are notorious for not knowing what they want. They have pics/videos and a site name. The rest is up to the designer. This is why it pays to go with an experienced designer. If the client wants to pay dirt cheap prices, they better know what the hell they want.
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Old 04-14-2004   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky@Apr 14 2004, 08:29 AM
Adult design customers are notorious for not knowing what they want. They have pics/videos and a site name. The rest is up to the designer. This is why it pays to go with an experienced designer. If the client wants to pay dirt cheap prices, they better know what the hell they want.

We are gulity of this.... many times we know what we want when we see it, but its tough to get to.

Sharky has always been infinitely patient with us!
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Old 04-14-2004   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky@Apr 14 2004, 08:29 AM
Adult design customers are notorious for not knowing what they want. They have pics/videos and a site name. The rest is up to the designer. This is why it pays to go with an experienced designer. If the client wants to pay dirt cheap prices, they better know what the hell they want.
exactly sharky!!

it might look easy placing all that material in the right place but look at the difference in quality and price amongst the designers in this industry ... writing the 'captions' and marketing text for a site is fucking hard - some days that part takes me hours & I design for my own products so I know them better than anyone.

in this case i see someone wanting to get an 'idea' from a designer and hoping they would get brilliance so they wouldn't have to think for themselves ...
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Old 04-14-2004   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 14 2004, 09:44 AM
Sharky has always been infinitely patient with us!
That's an understatement when he's dealing with me, lol!

Sharky rocks!
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Old 04-14-2004   #24
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Old 04-14-2004   #25
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I know for a fact that the designer in question would do anything reasonable to make the customer happy. I also know that she works pretty well with directions like "here's some pics to use, make me something", and is not at all unwilling to change them when inspiration happens to come AFTER she's put together a first draft.
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Old 04-14-2004   #26
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Keep in mind those were prelims for review.. they were far from the completed thing. Being given a mishmash of different orders, ideas, pictures, and not much direction aside from "convert", I did the best I could. Also consider, that was some of my early work, I had informed the client that I was relatively new to paysite design, and that is the reason the price was lower. I did spend a lot of time doing the work, and offered to change it however she requested. Instead I was told pretty much that everything I did completely sucked, I hadn't followed instructions (which were cryptic at best, what there were of them), and had very little input as to need. I wrote the thing off as a "lesson learned".

I'm glad it ended how it did though, I was contacted later by one of her employees who informed me that they had severe issues with nonpayment, and wanted to let me know that I would probably have issues collecting payment. I wrote the timr off as learning, and went on to my paying clients...
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Old 04-14-2004   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky@Apr 14 2004, 05:29 AM
Adult design customers are notorious for not knowing what they want. They have pics/videos and a site name. The rest is up to the designer. This is why it pays to go with an experienced designer. If the client wants to pay dirt cheap prices, they better know what the hell they want.
Exactly.
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Old 04-14-2004   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by cj@Apr 13 2004, 07:40 PM
I would have been disappointed with that ... not for the money, just fullstop.

http://www.privatecelebrity.com/beckhams - this took me 4 or 5 hours last night. *IF* I sold this, I would charge $500 - $700 with a few banners thrown in.

There's very little sell text, very few photos or information that show what is IN the site ...

But if a client doesn't tell you what they want, but just expects you to think up an idea all by yourself (despite that its their niche) and then expects you to know how to sell it, then you are asking too much for $350.

This is why sharky & mikeW charge more than $350 for a frontend ... if you want to be a tightass and try to get something cheap while being lazy at the same time, you'll get what you pay for!
My current work is much better I've got more years and practice under my belt. Even my portfolio is quite old now. Not that I'm that worried these days, I'm exclusively contracted now and don't take new clients. My bossman is very pleased with the productivity of my work now
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Old 04-14-2004   #29
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Old 04-14-2004   #30
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Old 04-14-2004   #31
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Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Apr 14 2004, 11:23 AM
who asked her to do it!! :P


Of course it had to happen the one night I couldn't listen
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Old 04-14-2004   #32
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Originally posted by fatbaby+Apr 14 2004, 08:49 AM-->
QUOTE (fatbaby @ Apr 14 2004, 08:49 AM)
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Originally posted by -Mike AI@Apr 14 2004, 08:44 AM
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Old 04-14-2004   #33
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Mike, if you think thats not too bad.
I'll design you all of them you want. For $350 and even better quatiy than that.
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Old 04-14-2004   #34
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Blah design
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Old 04-14-2004   #35
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Originally posted by AM Jeff@Apr 14 2004, 01:12 PM
Mike, if you think thats not too bad.
I'll design you all of them you want. For $350 and even better quatiy than that.
I have high expectations... and hold my designers to them.

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Old 04-14-2004   #36
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no. i would not pay 350 for those 3 pages. you can have much better work done by any designer here for less.
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Old 04-14-2004   #37
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Old 04-14-2004   #38
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Old 04-14-2004   #39
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The time it took to design those three pages may have been worth $350 but that site would not have converted well, so I'd say it wasn't worth the price.

The bottom line is that I'm sure Lady Mischief could have done better with more direction and should have been given the chance to rework the pages until the client was happy (within reason of course, given the low price).

I'd also like to point out that a designer can only do so much with crappy photos like those anyway. If those photos had been used in a killer design it still would have sucked and that wouldn't have been the designer's fault.
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Old 04-14-2004   #40
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Remember, the $350 wasn't just for three pages, but for 5 pages and a join page. Those were prelims but as no further direction was given (and yes, the image quality DID suck), nothing more came of it.
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Old 04-14-2004   #41
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Some people have complained that the poll choices werent any good.
That was intentional. I had hoped for and got discussion. By no means was this supposed to be a judge,jury and executioner thread. [Didnt they take that radio show off the air?]

I had hoped that everyone would look and decide for themselves.
I can say looking at her TGP gallery designs...the lady is dead on.

Ive got an email that kind of piggy backs this issue. But the poster is anon....talking about a new site and a tardy unnamed designer. Im more than happy to bring things up to discuss...but I cant do much for you if you want to hide and not tell me who you are and who the designer is.

So which one of your designers is 8 weeks late on a new amateur site and is supposed to deliver it tomorrow? You got an unhappy client and really....taunting your clients about taking it to the boards. Id expect more from the designers that frequent Oprano.
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Old 04-14-2004   #42
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Old 04-15-2004   #43
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That tour sucks, simple as that.... I feel like I need paying $350 just for looking at it!

I do like CJ's page though... but that might be because I've got a major hard-on for Victoria Beckham
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Old 04-15-2004   #44
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Originally posted by Trev@Apr 15 2004, 01:12 AM
That tour sucks, simple as that.... I feel like I need paying $350 just for looking at it!


I wouldn't give the wind from my ass for it.
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Old 04-15-2004   #45
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Old 04-15-2004   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky@Apr 14 2004, 11:29 PM
Adult design customers are notorious for not knowing what they want. They have pics/videos and a site name. The rest is up to the designer. This is why it pays to go with an experienced designer. If the client wants to pay dirt cheap prices, they better know what the hell they want.
This is exactly what I want when I am the paying customer.... The designer is paid for knowing what works and what doesnt.... and if the designer doesnt understand the niche.. They should be the one asking the questions imho... how does the client know what the designer understands and doesnt?

Bitching about clients not "giving" a designer enough information is very lame sounding imho.... from a customers point of view..

Then again, last time I ordered a tour it was $1500... and I would be expecting to pay at least $800-$1000 before I even went shopping... so maybe that's why I don't think any designer should ever be whining that it's my fault if they dont do a good job.

That said... if a designer takes on a job for $350.... I still think it's their responsibility to get all the information.. and drag a clear definition out of the customer if you feel it's needed.
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Old 04-15-2004   #47
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$350 is cheap for a tour... However, I don't think that tour is very usable.

I think the deadbeat should pay up the $350. Whether the tour is used or not. Next time, check a designer's portfolio for examples of their skill. This designer is obviously an entry level designer and you should expect entry level work from them.
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Old 04-15-2004   #48
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