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Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 04:53 PM A reverse Jesus.
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader? ~ Benjamin Disraeli
ALL politicians should note this one.
"Books are fatal: they are the curse of the human race. Nine-tenths of existing books are nonsense, and the clever books are the refutation of that nonsense." - Benjamin Disraeli
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Well, now, about Reagan - I was in the military at the same time as Dan, apparently - he did give us one good pay raise (14% is what I got as an E6 - took me above the poverty level for approximately 6 months).
I have always suspected that he lost interest in us after he determined that the Army no longer had any mule trains, because after that first raise we went right back to what we'd had before - generally, slightly les than HALF the rate of inflation.
This is also the man that attempted to make Blue Helmets out of the U.S. Marine Corps, but somehow St. Ronald never seems to bear responsiblility for the 63 souls that paid the ulitmate price for that policy. We kicked the shit out of them Cuban construction workers and threw one hell of a tantrum at Ghadafi, though ...
Finally, I do not dispute that the last years of the Soviet Union were dangerous times - but I don't think they were substantially more threatening than Berlin, 1948; Cuba, 1962; or the Yom Kippur war in 1973 (which Nixon doesn't get near enough credit for). Truman & Ike began, and his successors through Reagan followed, a policy of passive confrontation - the Cold War. Crediting Reagan for the collapse of the Iron Curtain is hperbole at its best. Reagan happened to be around when it collapsed under its own weight. What would have happened had the ongoing leadership struggle that began with the death of Breshnev not ultimately been won by Gorbachev - who would rank far higher on my list than Ronnie?
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Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 02:16 PM KK,
OK smartass, whats your definition. ;-)))
Oh wait....you liked Nixon!
You realize dont you that Nixon was not the first one to pull the bugging of the campaign headquarters trick right ? LBJ takes that honor, without it coming out til recently, as well as leaving Nixon in a huge pickle with the Vietnam War and trying to get the troops out without wreaking total havoc in Asia? Which Nixon also managed to, tho he did lie to the S. Vietnamese government in order to accomplish it.
My definition of a great leader would depend on just what he was leading. Business would be different than politics different than religion.
Nixon was a lot like Clinton in certain ways. Their personality flaws brought them down more than anything else. Both could have been remembered as great Presidents but they both screwed up enough to be put in the historical waste basket.
I'm glad at least a few people said FDR. His work after WW II was over is what helped map the way for the US today. Plus he was the first President to be elected after the crash of the stock market in '29, that took some balls.
My second choice would have to be Alexander the Great (all time).
Wig - In your line of thinking, what about "Bear" Bryant or even Red Auerbach?
Last edited by clemsontiger at Oct 9 2003, 07:12 PM
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"You learn more from your mistakes than from your successes."
I admire and respect Mandela and Martin Luther King, but they could not have accomplished what they did without the example of Ghandi.
Roosevelt had the vision to edge the United States closer to the Allies in Europe than the isolationists wanted, and he (along with Marshall) was the primary architect of the two-front strategy that we ultimately fought the war with. However, IM(NS)HO, the man who deserves the credit for saving Europe from Communism is Truman. Without the Marshall Plan, Greece, Italy, and France all probably would have gone communist.
And KK - the results that President Kissenger, er, Nixon achieved in Vietnam were absolutely no different than if we had packed our happy asses up and gone home after Tet in 1968 - with the possible exception of 30,000 American and 500,000+ Vietnamese who'd be having grandbabies today. As a matter of fact, with the decimation of the Viet Cong that Tet caused, the tactical situation would have been better for the South Vietnamese that way. The idea that the Paris settlement reassured ANYONE anyplace other than in Podunk, Arkansas, about U.S. resolve in Asia is patently silly. We didn't "lie" to the South Vietnamese government - we sold them down the river.
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Originally posted by *KK*@Oct 9 2003, 02:29 PM My definition of a great leader would depend on just what he was leading. Business would be different than politics different than religion.
Upon reflection, I'd like to modify my statement.
The one thing they all three have in common is to get the 'collection plate' as full as possible.
That might be a definition in and of itself Nicky baby
Sorry, but any man who can accomplish what he did has some major balls and leadership out the ass...doesn't mean what he did was good, but it was effective...
I see this talk about Ronald Reagan, what about Nancy Reagan? Anyone besides me rememebr the jokes about him talking and her lips not moving?
I lived in Wyoming in the 80's, Reagean definitely wasn't a hero there...his policies with japan basically bankrupted the state (the iron ore mine was a major job provider in central Wyoming) If only my dad was in New York raping people and driving a beamer and fucking his secretary instead of working his ass off in mines, I'd have a more positive outlook on Ronnie...
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Oct 9 2003, 10:24 PM I see this talk about Ronald Reagan, what about Nancy Reagan? Anyone besides me rememebr the jokes about him talking and her lips not moving?
Those kind of jokes are always popular whenever there is a strong first lady. Probably loudest when the Clintons were in the White House. Can you imagine what kind of rumor-mongering there will be if Hillary gets elected and Bill is the first man?
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"Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better." - Truman
there is another argument that the world is never short of great leaders, but rather short of the circumstances where great leadership is required and where great people can rise to the spotlight.
Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 02:49 AM
He was also a magnificent orator. And that is a MUST for a good leader!
you speak Russian? or is this just an assumption?
He came to power through a Coup after the 3rd or i believe 4th try.... not through the leading the masses. It was due more to circumstances that presented themselves. His opinions and views were in the minority, his followers were the minority. He was a thief, a bandit and a murderer.
"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." -- Ronald Reagan. Radio microphone test in 1984.
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"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." -- Ronald Reagan. Radio microphone test in 1984.
I tried to find that quote yesterday.
And as for that Simpsons episode I thought it was "Excellent"
10-09-2003
hail hitler
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