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Old 09-13-2003   #51
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Originally posted by Opti@Sep 13 2003, 03:39 PM
Rox, apart from drug crime.. fixing poverty problems might make an impact on gun deaths too.... but the accidental deaths of kids issue would be where I would start.. who could argue that isnt important enough to justify at least talking about some sort of new restrictions, without chest beating about the constitution.
I'm too lazy to look up the stats, but I'd be willing to bet that the "accidental deaths" of children from firearms is a MUCH smaller number than the deaths of children from their parent's own hand and even moreso, from accidents in the home that didn't involve firearms.

I did look up homicide stats and you're much more likely to die in a car wreck. In fact, of the top 15 causes of death in the US, firearms - any - didn't make the list. And that number of firearms DEATHS has dropped almost every year since the 1970's.
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Old 09-13-2003   #52
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Originally posted by Peaches+Sep 14 2003, 06:57 AM-->
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Old 09-13-2003   #53
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Originally posted by Opti@Sep 13 2003, 05:10 PM
oh.. I thought it was a big issue.. like 4-5000 kids under 18 killed in gun accidents annually and rising...
Per the CDC's website, 436 children aged 0-14 (I used that criteria since 15 and above, IMHO, isn't any more "accidental" than an adult) died of ANY firearm related death in 2000 (the most recent year they have listed).
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Old 09-13-2003   #54
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Old 09-13-2003   #55
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Originally posted by Opti@Sep 13 2003, 02:39 PM
(sorry Sarettah, not ignoring your protest) which is an example of what leaves me scratching my head.. Why tout 2nd ammendment issues as an important case to for gun ownership... the 2nd ammendment appears to be the argument of last defence to me.
Nopers... The first argument is the 2nd amendment on this issue...

It is a guarantee in our constitution.... period...

If someone wants to override that guarantee, then they need to amend the thing, pure and simple...

The amendment in question includes the phrase "shall not be infringed"...

Which means to me that you cannot make a law that regulates what arms a CITIZEN can carry... Unless you amend the constitution to say something along the lines of "within reasonable guidelines" or something....

I am not a gun nut... and in fact think there should be a reasonable limitation (I don't want folks driving tanks up and down my street by any means) BUT to impose some sort of regulation requires the constitution to change....

And before it gets asked... Yes, I think the laws against "Hate Speech" are unconstitutional too... I do not like hate type speech, but at the same time, the constitution says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

which means that if you want to in some way limit the rights of free speech, you have to amend the constitution to provide for those limitations....

************************************************** *****

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
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Old 09-14-2003   #56
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The amendment in question includes the phrase "shall not be infringed"...

Which means to me that you cannot make a law that regulates what arms a CITIZEN can carry... Unless you amend the constitution to say something along the lines of "within reasonable guidelines" or something....

Sarettah.. with all due respect, I reckon you could argue for hours on end the intent of the 2nd ammendment.. Wig's friend argues it clearly guarantees anyone's right to arm themselves anyway they like.. I didn't read it all but I doubt he is putting forward any argument about whether that is a good thing or not...

If he asserts the 2nd ammendment makes it impossible to regulate firearm ownership at all, surely that also should lead to the conclusion that the constitution requires changing... not that the current situation is right!

I respect the idea of the constitution protecting all.. but looking into the fishbowl from back here, the constitution appears to be being used against the good of the people on this issue.

Quote:
Per the CDC's website, 436 children aged 0-14
That is a LOT less than I was given the impression were dieing.. but honestly, I still think that is a LOT of kids... Every single day in the US at least 1 family loses a child to a gun accident on those numbers.. I thought it was 10 a day.. so you may be able to see why I am wondering why American's dont talk about this as a prime issue in the gun debate.

1 other reason I relate to this issue is that at the time I grew up in Australia we had virtually no gun laws.. Everyone knew someone who had lost a friend or family member to a gun accident in those days... Mostly stuff like accidents climbing through fences with friends and shooting each other, or loaded guns in cars going off... My guess is that every American would know someone who has died in a gun accident.. BUT now if you ask a younger Australian about this... They wont know ANYONE that has died in a gun accident in most cases... and that change happened over less than 10-15 years. Governments fell over the issue and there is still an on-going fight to mark the lines but criminals dont rule the streets and the vast majority of people seem to support gun control leglislation now.. and close to Zero kids die of gun accidents every year... just like UK and NZ and even Canada I believe.

Anyway.. I am not an anti-gun nut.. I used to love hunting.. it just annoys me that a piece of paper, with arguable definition, that was even designed to be ammended as time went by.. is so often put up as an argument against even talking about sensible gun control.

Nobody liked having to give up the guns they had used legally for a lifetime here.. but 20/20 hindsight shows that most people adjusted a lot more easilly than expected... The Indonesians haven't come swarming upon us becasue we are "un-protected" and the country really is a safer place for it.
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Old 09-14-2003   #57
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In the United States there is more than enough hysteria and hot air surrounding the gun issue to account for a measurable percentage of global warming.

Look at some of the hyperbole floating around in this thread. The assertions of Internet constitutional scholars to the contrary, restrictions on what citizens can and can't carry are have been found to be in compliance with the Constitution, including the 2nd Ammendment - and we've been arguing about it since the Marshall started enforcing the laws when Dodge City started getting civilized.

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Guns are an integral part of America, and inarguably put us in the position of superpower that we are today.
I couldn't have written a better example proving my point if I tried.



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Old 09-15-2003   #58
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Mornin' all!

Yes, kids (and adults) die in accidents with guns... as well as with household chemicals, bathtubs, power tools... the list goes on. People with guns and kids (or other people) in their house should do all they can to minimize the chance of anyone "accidentally" discharging a firearm. Keep it locked up, the ammo in a different location, and be sure that EVERYONE in the house is trained, or at the very least put through an age appropriate gun safety lesson. Again, education is key. Accidents will and do happen; and I'd love to see the statistics of those accidental gun deaths in the context of how many of the victims had been educated about gun safety.

"Country kids" are taught about guns from before they are physically able to use one, generally the accidents we hear about are suburban kids who're likely to have never held a real gun or been out hunting. I'd be interested in the related statistics along that vein.

I don't even own a gun right now (won't until my kid is old enough and physically able to fire one, and is properly trained to do so), but when I do, it's unlikely I'll be buying one for hunting. If I have one, it'll be one of the mankiller variety, because other than the pleasure of target practice, it'll have one use: protection. I'm not ashamed to admit that, nor should I have to be. It's what handguns are made for -- stopping an enemy; defined as "anyone threatening my life, liberty or property." I'm ready and willing to comply with the laws that allow me to do so. I have no argument with most of the laws currently on the books.

The debate will continue to rage on, I suppose. I don't mind at all, since it means at least SOME Americans are giving a damn enough to educate themselves; if for no other reason than to argue!!!
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