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Vick, I happen to like Michael Moore. He gets carried away like most comedians...Dennis Miller, Bill Maher, George Carlin, Chris Rock...but they make a point and create controversy. We can't believe anything we read, so what's the difference if Moore's work was technically a documentary. It's just another category.
Here is Calif. our beloved Governor said he was going to sign the bill which would allow *illegal aliens* to apply for and be granted Calif Drivers Licenses. A representative of the bill came forward yesterday and said the bill says *legal aliens with greencards* not *illegal aliens*...the radio station, KFI, was going crazy trying to decide if the latimes was wrong when they have printed *illegal aliens* over and over in their articles.
Look what happened at the nytimes when a reporter made up stories which wer printed by the nytimes as nonfiction. Several executives left the paper. Bush says one thing, and then he changes his mind and tries to cover up the truth.
All you gun-toting porn aficionados should go to this site and give up your guns. http://www.goodbyeguns.org (sign the petiton and cleanse your souls)
You do mean you are not anti-gun nor pro-gun, right?
Yeah, you are a model of objectivity and moderation.
Well, part of my weekend plans are to attend the Gun Show that happens every year over Labor Day here. I'm neither pro- or anti-gun, any more than I am pro- or anti- refrigerators, hammers, ginsu knives or callzappers.
As long as I am regarded as a wild-eyed radical by both the NRA and the (oh, I shouldn't ... but I can't help myself) Brady bunch, I figure I'm on the right track.
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Wig, as I mentioned in the other thread (so kind of you to have a thread for me, even though I only read occassionally and post rarely if ever anymore), I only added to this discussion to put some facts out there for people to take into consideration.
Peaches, my apologies, I missed the word decade. Further research brought out that California had 1.7 million stolen in that same time frame alone, with more than 1 million outstanding "never recovered".
I have no opinion on the subject, just trying to provide facts as needed to keep things moving along.
Alex
Next scheduled post: November.
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Originally posted by RawAlex@Aug 26 2003, 07:47 PM Wig, as I mentioned in the other thread (so kind of you to have a thread for me, even though I only read occassionally and post rarely if ever anymore), I only added to this discussion to put some facts out there for people to take into consideration.
Peaches, my apologies, I missed the word decade. Further research brought out that California had 1.7 million stolen in that same time frame alone, with more than 1 million outstanding "never recovered".
I have no opinion on the subject, just trying to provide facts as needed to keep things moving along.
Alex
Next scheduled post: November.
Quote:
I have no opinion on the subject, just trying to provide facts as needed to keep things moving along
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Aug 26 2003, 02:42 PM Satire? No, I don't believe that this film is a satire. The numbers and stats given in the movie are real. Black is black. White is white.
EC- you're 100% incorrect and deceiving yourself
IT IS SATIRE, Moore has even admitted as much
That my whole issue with BfC, Moore lied
Try calling the bank that Moore alleged was giving away guns when opeing up an account ... Moore set them up
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wig, I don't feel like getting into a "yes it is, no it's not" kind of debate with you. Seems that is basically all you can muster re: issues relating to guns.
American is a gun society. Too many of you are armed just because you are allowed to be. Most common answer after having asked someone why they own a gun? "Because I can."
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Originally posted by Evil Chris@Aug 27 2003, 01:19 PM American is a gun society. Too many of you are armed just because you are allowed to be. Most common answer after having asked someone why they own a gun? "Because I can."
Yes America is somewhat of a Gun Society - in part because ownership of guns (rifles) help to liberate this great Nation
as for the "Because I can" answer - I'd like to see data on that :P
I really don't think many gun owners would answer "Because I can" when asked why they own firearms
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Most of these articles support the same or similar position as I do, although none of them seem to be really calling for a massive deregulation of weapons or as some have put it, "no laws are good laws".
Yes, their argument is that the laws themselves are exasperating the problem, so it would be fair to say that they are for deregulation of some degree.
Re: the 2nd Amendment. Here is the testimony of Eugene Volokh on the Second Amendment, Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Sept. 23, 1998
He is a law professor from UCLA who teaches one of the few classes on firearm regulation. He was also a clerk for Sandra O'Connor.
Michael Moore is to liberal as Rush Limbaugh is to conservative. Just as most conservatives have learned to be embarassed and hide their listening to or reading Rush Limbaugh I think liberals will soon feel soon the same way about Michael Moore.
Now I laughed my ass off at Bowling for Columbine. The cartoon in the middle was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. His points regarding fear in the media are dead-on. Of course they are dead-on for every other nation too. People are pretty freaked out and afraid in this world. Everywhere the nightly news is filled with things one should be afraid of much more than stories of say, scientific progress. That part was presented very well too. It's a very entertaining movie, so entertaining that I'll probably rush right out to watch his next one.
I don't think "Bowling for Columbine" can be taken seriously in any way though. Moore said that the belligerency of US administrations causes it's citizens to be more violent than other industrial nations. There are no statistics to back him up. My own quick analysis of the homicide rates in the US showed no obvious correlation with major military actions, for example. US homicide rates pretty much rose from the beginning of the century until 1933, then reversed and fell until 1958, rose again until the mid 1990s and have since dropped back to their lowest levels in 30 years. In fact, the homicide rate today is about the same as it was in 1913.
Moore makes such proclamations though and then shows anecdotal evidence (at times even falsified). I'm sure some of this will be convincing to liberals in the same way that Rush Limbaugh is to conservatives. Both say things that their audience already believes and want to believe.
Last edited by Colin at Aug 27 2003, 04:57 PM
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As far as the gun issue itself, the utilitarian argument is interesting. There seems to be some evidence for each side. Seems to me that in some cases stricter handgun laws lead to more violence and in some cases less.
For many American citizens though the question is not a utilitarian one. Even if you could prove conclusively that for all societies at all times and under all conditions stricter handgun laws leads to less violence, I don't think that would be good enough reason for the people that want to maintain their right to bear arms.
For some people a gun is the ultimate symbol of freedom. "Even though it is dangerous I have the freedom to own this gun." Many other people believe in the primacy of the Constitution. They believe that the integrity of the Constitution should be maintained. There's even a party (The Constitution Party). Some see it as a political issue and want to defend it along political lines ("I am a Republican and this is what the Republican party believes"). Others just want to shoot animals or beer cans or trespassers.
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I know I believe in addressing the cause of the problem and not the symptom.
If we could prove conclusively that for all societies at all times and under all conditions stricter handgun laws leads to less violence, I would be willing to comply.
But I side with Abe who said... "Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes crimes out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
I look at violence and crime in a America the same way I do alchholism or drug abuse. It is better to deal with these things through education (and treatment) than prohibition.
08-26-2003
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