Cheney breaks tie

Forest · 05-23-2003

with recent polls showing 2-1 that americans are NOT interested in tax cuts why do you think the Bush admin found it so important to push a verrry watered down version of their original tax plan of 700B+ thru congress?

do you really think it will stimulate the economy?

Torone · 05-23-2003

If you believe those polls, I suggest you change polling companies/sources.

The polls that aren't slanted show that Americans WANT (62%) a serious tax cut. The polls you are reading are done by Lib pollsters and are manipulated by the wording of the questions.

As for why a tax cut, if a tiny tax cut such as the Dems proposed would stimulate the economy, why wouldn't a larger one do so more?

I could go on about tax cuts all day; but I'm already on the board, so I can't do so. Do your research properly and try getting your material from less Anti-American Communist sources.

Forest · 05-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Torone@May 23 2003, 06:33 AM
If you believe those polls, I suggest you change polling companies/sources.

The polls that aren't slanted show that Americans WANT (62%) a serious tax cut. The polls you are reading are done by Lib pollsters and are manipulated by the wording of the questions.

As for why a tax cut, if a tiny tax cut such as the Dems proposed would stimulate the economy, why wouldn't a larger one do so more?

I could go on about tax cuts all day; but I'm already on the board, so I can't do so. Do your research properly and try getting your material from less Anti-American Communist sources.

3 different news sources have quoted those fiqures
and 2 of the 3 are american Owned

RawAlex · 05-23-2003

Torone, the problem is how you ask the question:

Do you want to pay less tax? If you only got 62%, that would suck!

Do you want to cut government services so you can pay less tax? That would probably only get 35%.

Do you want to cut taxes today so that your taxes can go up alot later once Bush is gone? Who knows what that one would get.

Tax cuts against a declining tax base is bad math. But you know that.

Alex

Last edited by RawAlex at May 23 2003, 09:53 AM

Mike AI · 05-23-2003

I am not sure about this tax cut helping economy out short term....

Of course I am ALWAYS for tax cuts, any kind... but it takes politicians to fuck them up, and change and twist them so they do not make sense....

We need major tax reform, and move to a flat tax - that would be easy to work with for everyone.

As far as polls, many politicians have the American public fooled thinking that the gov't is giving up some of their money - that the gov't earns money somehow. The fact is, it is OUR money - the American Worker... the gov't does not produce money, it can only take and redistribute.

Forest · 05-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 23 2003, 06:56 AM

We need major tax reform, and move to a flat tax - that would be easy to work with for everyone.

RawAlex · 05-23-2003

Mike, unless the government cuts it's expenditures by the amount of the tax cut (and it hasn't, with the Iraq thing and homeland security, the budget is UP a bunch), the money given to the public as tax reductions is fools gold - every dollar not paided today costs you 1.05 (5% interest) next year... and keep adding to that every year the debts go up.

Balance the budget, pay down the debts, and there will be long term tax reductions when the government spends less on debt service. Continue to make short term moves, and it will be give with one hand, take with the other for as long as you keep voting them in.

Alex

Danny_C · 05-23-2003

The concept of stimulating the economy with tax cuts only works if the tax cut goes to the people who will spend it.

Hooper · 05-23-2003

The tax cut was a bad idea.

But I'm thrilled. It'll save me a ton.

Hooper · 05-23-2003

That's so totally right danny. Problem with giving tax cuts to the wealthy is that the wealthy tend to save their money because they have excess. Getting people to save is what you want to do in an inflationary economy, not in a deflationary economy.

The extra $ i'll get from dividend reductions wont be spent on boats or cars, it'll likely be held in case times get tougher.

Almighty Colin · 05-23-2003

Decreasing spending and cutting taxes is great from my point of view. That shrinks the government as a whole. That's not a stimulus though. According to what is now conventional wisdom (Keynes, more or less), you don't balance the budget during slow years. The whole idea is to cut taxes or INCREASE government spending to avoid and recover from recessions.

For better or worse, deficit spending ala Keynesian economics is how governments like the US, Japan, Canada, and France have all stimulated their economy during slow years ever since the depression.

I don't think is the best tax plan possible but I think it's ok enough. For all the disagreements between economists on this plan - and there are two large camps signing off on their own pro or con documents with a handful of nobel prize winners on each side - nearly everyone agrees that cutting taxes and/or increasing spending is how one stimulates the economy. The only real disagreement is what sort of distribution of income will result from particular tax cuts and how fast the economy will respond to particular deficit spending stimuli.

Nearly every economist is some sort of Keynesian (some neo-Keynesian) today. Cutr taxes and increase government spending to stimulate the economy.

TheEnforcer · 05-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 23 2003, 09:56 AM
I am not sure about this tax cut helping economy out short term....

Of course I am ALWAYS for tax cuts, any kind... but it takes politicians to fuck them up, and change and twist them so they do not make sense....

We need major tax reform, and move to a flat tax - that would be easy to work with for everyone.

As far as polls, many politicians have the American public fooled thinking that the gov't is giving up some of their money - that the gov't earns money somehow. The fact is, it is OUR money - the American Worker... the gov't does not produce money, it can only take and redistribute.

I'd MUCH rather see a consumption based tax myself.

Mike AI · 05-23-2003

Alex, trust me I am all for cutting gov't spending.... it is out of control, and getting worse....

The gov't should cut back on at least 50% of the things they give their money to.

The Federal Gov't has proved indept at almosteverything they do - the ONLY thing the Federal Gov't does well is the Military....

sarettah · 05-23-2003

I was watching the tube the other night. News report was about removing the tax on stock dividends... The reasoning there is that the corporation has already paid taxes on it's profits and when it distributes a dividend, if the receiver of the dividend is taxed, that is double taxation.

Got me to thinking. Since March 2000, most of us small guys, who are pretty much invested only through 401K plans and IRAs and such have watched our savings shrink dramatically. If we try to rescue what we have, we get nailed by the double whammy of having to pay the tax on the withdrawal plus a 10% penalty for the early withdrawal.

Why doesn't Congress offer some relief where it is really needed. Allow us to grab our money before it's gone without having to pay the penalty. Allowing us to grab it tax free would be cool too, but just removing the penalty would be enough to allow me to grab it.

I think many of us would move our money out of our savings plans and use it to pay down the debts we have been accumulating along the way. This alone would help to stimulate the economy.

One other thought, if they remove the tax on dividends, I foresee many smaller companies selling out to their employees. This way, all employees are owners who receive zero in salary but receive instead "dividends" that just happen to be the same amount as their salary... But non taxable... Wouldn't that be funny to watch the powers that be try to fix...

Our infrastructure needs a lot of attention. Our interstate highways are crumbling. Our aviation industry is in the pits, Our railroad industry is virtually nonexistent. Our urban downtowns areas are vacant and crumbling. This is not a time for the government to make tax cuts. This is a time for the government to take the tax money that we pay and invest it wisely in the domestic infrastructure. You want to stimulate the economy, build roads, build railroads, build airports, rebuild cities... Putting people to work will do a whole hell of a lot more good then putting 300-400 bucks in peoples pockets.

IMHO of course.

Dianna Vesta · 05-23-2003

I agree on reform. This rollercoaster ride we’ve been on for decades is too unpredictable. It always seems like feast of famine to me.

What ever happened to that idea about ending federal income tax and increasing tangibles? That made a lot more sense to me. A % goes to the state and another % goes to the federal government.

People with less money aren’t going to spend as much and the boys with toys will still pay taxes.

Anyone heard any more about that?

RawAlex · 05-23-2003

Diana, the problem is that politicians, in order to stay popular and stay in office, always push the bad news into the future and suck the good news into the present. Tax cuts are are the payday loan on economics - you think you have more money than you really do. Then you spend it. Then the government raises taxes and wants it all back again to pay for the money they had to borrow to be able to give you a tax cut in the first place.

Most people don't realize, but the amount of the US government spends on debt service (interest payments) is similar to the amounts spent for the entire military - and is about 2/3 of the tax cut written out today.

In the long run, the bigger the debt, the less the government has to spend in the future without creating more debt.

Unless government spending drops (and that includes cutting down the number of people with government jobs, the size of government overall, and the big dollar entitlements to all those wonderful pork barrel projects), tax cuts are just a mirage, fooling you into thinking things are going better... the you get on the rollercoaster again for another ride...

Alex

Torone · 05-23-2003

Well, American-owned means that, unless one was Fox, they're liberal and Anti-American...

Sword · 05-24-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 23 2003, 12:24 PM
Alex, trust me I am all for cutting gov't spending.... it is out of control, and getting worse....

The gov't should cut back on at least 50% of the things they give their money to.

The Federal Gov't has proved indept at almosteverything they do - the ONLY thing the Federal Gov't does well is the Military....

Bravo! Very well said!

JR · 05-24-2003

i am not going to comment. i am just going to count how many times Alex starts a post with "XXXX, the problem is...."

RawAlex · 05-24-2003

JR, thanks for the reminder why I shouldn't bother to add to the gumbo.

Alex

JR · 05-24-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 24 2003, 06:50 AM
JR, thanks for the reminder why I shouldn't bother to add to the gumbo.

Alex

not a problem.

a couple more reminders:

- change the bulb in your nite light regularly.
- keep taking your medication.
- dont give up on therapy.
- learn the name of at least one Canadian politician daily and i promise you that with some determination and a little effort, you will be informed enough that you may be able to talk about them once in a while.

RawAlex · 05-24-2003

Oh yeah, I forgot this one too:

JR, go fuck yourself you useless asshole.

Alex

JR · 05-24-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 24 2003, 09:57 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot this one too:

JR, go fuck yourself you useless asshole.

Alex

slow down please.

i think i will have to pace myself with you because i am afraid of wearing out my "RawAlex Button".

05-23-2003	#1
Forest FFN PERSONAL TRAINER $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: N. Miami Posts: 4,622	with recent polls showing 2-1 that americans are NOT interested in tax cuts why do you think the Bush admin found it so important to push a verrry watered down version of their original tax plan of 700B+ thru congress? do you really think it will stimulate the economy? __________________ Need design work done? CLICK the SIG! 118156620-icq Forest AT silverclouddesign.com

05-23-2003	#2
Torone Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,137	If you believe those polls, I suggest you change polling companies/sources. The polls that aren't slanted show that Americans WANT (62%) a serious tax cut. The polls you are reading are done by Lib pollsters and are manipulated by the wording of the questions. As for why a tax cut, if a tiny tax cut such as the Dems proposed would stimulate the economy, why wouldn't a larger one do so more? I could go on about tax cuts all day; but I'm already on the board, so I can't do so. Do your research properly and try getting your material from less Anti-American Communist sources. __________________ Why me? Why always me?

05-23-2003	#4
RawAlex Members $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,036	Torone, the problem is how you ask the question: Do you want to pay less tax? If you only got 62%, that would suck! Do you want to cut government services so you can pay less tax? That would probably only get 35%. Do you want to cut taxes today so that your taxes can go up alot later once Bush is gone? Who knows what that one would get. Tax cuts against a declining tax base is bad math. But you know that. Alex Last edited by RawAlex at May 23 2003, 09:53 AM __________________ Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds

05-23-2003	#5
Mike AI Administrator Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 11,618	I am not sure about this tax cut helping economy out short term.... Of course I am ALWAYS for tax cuts, any kind... but it takes politicians to fuck them up, and change and twist them so they do not make sense.... We need major tax reform, and move to a flat tax - that would be easy to work with for everyone. As far as polls, many politicians have the American public fooled thinking that the gov't is giving up some of their money - that the gov't earns money somehow. The fact is, it is OUR money - the American Worker... the gov't does not produce money, it can only take and redistribute. __________________ Make big money on your Domains! Why wait 40 days to get paid with the other guys? Parked.com pays the most for your traffic, and cuts checks twice a month!

05-23-2003	#7
RawAlex Members $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,036	Mike, unless the government cuts it's expenditures by the amount of the tax cut (and it hasn't, with the Iraq thing and homeland security, the budget is UP a bunch), the money given to the public as tax reductions is fools gold - every dollar not paided today costs you 1.05 (5% interest) next year... and keep adding to that every year the debts go up. Balance the budget, pay down the debts, and there will be long term tax reductions when the government spends less on debt service. Continue to make short term moves, and it will be give with one hand, take with the other for as long as you keep voting them in. Alex __________________ Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds

05-23-2003	#8
Danny_C Members Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 94	The concept of stimulating the economy with tax cuts only works if the tax cut goes to the people who will spend it. __________________ Dedicated server specials! Contact me at danny@marlinwebhosting.com / ICQ: 103230788 / Phone: 407-697-6594

05-23-2003	#9
Hooper Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,156	The tax cut was a bad idea. But I'm thrilled. It'll save me a ton. __________________ Quickbuck is paying $100 Per trial join.

05-23-2003	#11
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	Decreasing spending and cutting taxes is great from my point of view. That shrinks the government as a whole. That's not a stimulus though. According to what is now conventional wisdom (Keynes, more or less), you don't balance the budget during slow years. The whole idea is to cut taxes or INCREASE government spending to avoid and recover from recessions. For better or worse, deficit spending ala Keynesian economics is how governments like the US, Japan, Canada, and France have all stimulated their economy during slow years ever since the depression. I don't think is the best tax plan possible but I think it's ok enough. For all the disagreements between economists on this plan - and there are two large camps signing off on their own pro or con documents with a handful of nobel prize winners on each side - nearly everyone agrees that cutting taxes and/or increasing spending is how one stimulates the economy. The only real disagreement is what sort of distribution of income will result from particular tax cuts and how fast the economy will respond to particular deficit spending stimuli. Nearly every economist is some sort of Keynesian (some neo-Keynesian) today. Cutr taxes and increase government spending to stimulate the economy. __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

05-23-2003	#14
sarettah Stay Out Of The Box Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lost in the ozone Posts: 10,318	I was watching the tube the other night. News report was about removing the tax on stock dividends... The reasoning there is that the corporation has already paid taxes on it's profits and when it distributes a dividend, if the receiver of the dividend is taxed, that is double taxation. Got me to thinking. Since March 2000, most of us small guys, who are pretty much invested only through 401K plans and IRAs and such have watched our savings shrink dramatically. If we try to rescue what we have, we get nailed by the double whammy of having to pay the tax on the withdrawal plus a 10% penalty for the early withdrawal. Why doesn't Congress offer some relief where it is really needed. Allow us to grab our money before it's gone without having to pay the penalty. Allowing us to grab it tax free would be cool too, but just removing the penalty would be enough to allow me to grab it. I think many of us would move our money out of our savings plans and use it to pay down the debts we have been accumulating along the way. This alone would help to stimulate the economy. One other thought, if they remove the tax on dividends, I foresee many smaller companies selling out to their employees. This way, all employees are owners who receive zero in salary but receive instead "dividends" that just happen to be the same amount as their salary... But non taxable... Wouldn't that be funny to watch the powers that be try to fix... Our infrastructure needs a lot of attention. Our interstate highways are crumbling. Our aviation industry is in the pits, Our railroad industry is virtually nonexistent. Our urban downtowns areas are vacant and crumbling. This is not a time for the government to make tax cuts. This is a time for the government to take the tax money that we pay and invest it wisely in the domestic infrastructure. You want to stimulate the economy, build roads, build railroads, build airports, rebuild cities... Putting people to work will do a whole hell of a lot more good then putting 300-400 bucks in peoples pockets. IMHO of course. __________________ Free Adult Webcams

05-23-2003	#15
Dianna Vesta Members Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,087	I agree on reform. This rollercoaster ride we’ve been on for decades is too unpredictable. It always seems like feast of famine to me. What ever happened to that idea about ending federal income tax and increasing tangibles? That made a lot more sense to me. A % goes to the state and another % goes to the federal government. People with less money aren’t going to spend as much and the boys with toys will still pay taxes. Anyone heard any more about that? __________________ Live radio and audio downloads have a definite place in marketing and promoting products. Not only will it capture new customers but it is an excellent way to promote new products to existing customers continuing to build good customer relationships. Click here for more info

05-24-2003	#19
JR Members The global leader in pay-per-view AEBN Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: in my chair Posts: 3,320	i am not going to comment. i am just going to count how many times Alex starts a post with "XXXX, the problem is...." __________________