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In many civilizations until quite recently girls became eligible for marriage around the age of 14. They often married an older man.
Today we are repulsed by a 14 year old girl marrying and especially having sex. Many of us consider it immoral.
Are other societies primitive? Are we more advanced? Is this the result of changes in women's rights or are we overly prudish?
If you were born in Europe in the mid 18th century you could expect, on average, to live only into your mid 30's. [Today it's over 80]. Marriage at 14 was halfway to death.
Is morality dictated by environment and not the other way around?
And what of Forest's Nambla thread? At what age IS someone old enough to make such a decision and how do we know?
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There is only 1 age listed here that I would agree is old enough
the problem with Love Sex and Age is that the Older you are the easier it is to manipulate a younger person as they dont have a clue of the emotional and phycological issues of sex and love
especially rape of a young boy
im surprised that there isnt a quote up there like:
"because he gives me candy"
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'In the eye of the beholder', or something...For me, a woman's gotta be like at least 20-ish, but almost any age past that is ok (as long as she's breathing).
I can say with complete clarity and conviction that I was ready to have sex when I was 13. In fact, I would have been most grateful to any decently good looking woman of any age that would have seduced me. Yet society would arrest her if she were an adult. That poor girl.
Who amongst you would cast the first stone?
Last edited by Colin at May 14 2003, 07:28 AM
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It certainly didn't seem wrong to me at the time. I was a freshman in High School and she was a Senior. I did what every freshman male in high school dreams of.. nailing a senior cheerleader.
However, If my daughter were 14, I would have a serious problem with her dating an 18 year old. No matter how "mature" she was.
I know my Mother wasn't happy when she found out.. and did everything she could to stop it from happening... which only made me want it more! This was around the time my Dad went to serve in the 1st Gulf war, so they sold the house and moved on the Airforce base. lol. she couldn't come on base to see me!
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Originally posted by sharky@May 14 2003, 04:54 AM I was 14 with an 18 year old.
It certainly didn't seem wrong to me at the time. I was a freshman in High School and she was a Senior. I did what every freshman male in high school dreams of.. nailing a senior cheerleader.
However, If my daughter were 14, I would have a serious problem with her dating an 18 year old. No matter how "mature" she was.
I know my Mother wasn't happy when she found out.. and did everything she could to stop it from happening... which only made me want it more! This was around the time my Dad went to serve in the 1st Gulf war, so they sold the house and moved on the Airforce base. lol. she couldn't come on base to see me!
what about a 14 year old boy or girl with a 35 year old
the amount of power that adult would hold over that child would be incredible as at that age they are verry confused and unsure of themselves and their sexuality
just plain wrong
I had a guy pick me up hitchhiking home from school 1 eve i was 15
he started to do the "talking about sex" routine with me
have you ever had sex with a boy..a man..do you have a gf blah blah blah
then the fucker put his hands inside my thigh
I froze for a moment then broke his fucking wrist with 1 twist (or atleast i heard it snap)
car slammed into a gaurd rail came to an quick stop with him screamin
I jumped out of the car and ran for my life
wish I could find that fucker now that im an adult.
his wrist would be the least of his worries
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So is there a double-standard [as always]? 14 year old boys have sex because they are horny, 14 year old girls are young, naive, and get duped? I think "society" needs to stop thinking of women this way.
They should be able to do whatever they want with their own body. [? ? ?]. Or no?
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Originally posted by Colin@May 14 2003, 06:19 AM So is there a double-standard [as always]? 14 year old boys have sex because they are horny, 14 year old girls are young, naive, and get duped? I think "society" needs to stop thinking of women this way.
They should be able to do whatever they want with their own body. [? ? ?]. Or no?
i think that remark assumes that boys and girls are identical emotionallly and in their ability to manage the experience.... otherwise there could not be a "double standard".
i think that for boys its a mechanical experience
i think that for girls, its an emotional experience
i dont think that there is a double standard. i think that boys should be boys and girls should be girls.
otherwise, the law defines what is right and wrong and there are arbitrary legal boundaries set to protect those who may not be capable of making an educated decision due to age, ignorance, lack of life experience which prevent a real understanding the possible ramifications of the choice they are making.
Originally posted by Colin@May 14 2003, 02:50 AM I have my ten foot pole out today.
In many civilizations until quite recently girls became eligible for marriage around the age of 14. They often married an older man.
Today we are repulsed by a 14 year old girl marrying and especially having sex. Many of us consider it immoral.
Are other societies primitive? Are we more advanced? Is this the result of changes in women's rights or are we overly prudish?
If you were born in Europe in the mid 18th century you could expect, on average, to live only into your mid 30's. [Today it's over 80]. Marriage at 14 was halfway to death.
Is morality dictated by environment and not the other way around?
And what of Forest's Nambla thread? At what age IS someone old enough to make such a decision and how do we know?
Ask Teejay how young was too young.
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Originally posted by Forest@May 14 2003, 08:00 AM what about a 14 year old boy or girl with a 35 year old
the amount of power that adult would hold over that child would be incredible as at that age they are verry confused and unsure of themselves and their sexuality
just plain wrong
I had a guy pick me up hitchhiking home from school 1 eve i was 15
he started to do the "talking about sex" routine with me
have you ever had sex with a boy..a man..do you have a gf blah blah blah
then the fucker put his hands inside my thigh
I froze for a moment then broke his fucking wrist with 1 twist (or atleast i heard it snap)
car slammed into a gaurd rail came to an quick stop with him screamin
I jumped out of the car and ran for my life
wish I could find that fucker now that im an adult.
his wrist would be the least of his worries
Within a few years I can understand.. but until ones an adult (over 18 in this case) they shouldn't be having sex with one.
In my case it was a tad different. The girl was still in high school and was considered one of my peers.
When I was a senior in high school, I never thought about dating a freshman. In my eyes they were too young.
lol.. this is something i am going to have to worry about in 8-10 years. Now days it seems as though kids start having sex at 10-12 instead of 14-16. I only hope my daughter doesn't get the idea stuck in her head that an adult is a suitable person to have that sort of a relationship with.
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Originally posted by Torone@May 14 2003, 07:38 AM (as long as she's breathing).
Speak for yourself! ... pulse is OPTIONAL!!!
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Originally posted by Forest@May 14 2003, 11:14 AM and get this
i found another wine auction site that just sold a full case of the same exact wine for
6500.00 for the Case
Tonight we drink with the KINGS!!!!
Forest, accidents do happen,
I suggest you come 1/2 hour earlier so we can open a first bottle and taste,
just to save the embarassment if it turned
;-)))
First off, men vs. women....vive la diffrence! It bothers me that the women's libbers try to make women 'equal' to men in all ways....the fact is, we are very different.
I was 14 the first time, with my b/f of the same age....I was thrilled to do it! haha
While I agree for the most part with Forest, I DO NOT agree that for women/girls it is 'emotional'....not the first time! (at least it wasn't for me)
It is many things.....but curiosity and hormones top the list. (just like the guys)....also, attaining a sense of 'adulthood' plays a part.
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I heard on the news the other day, a poll revealed that the majority of those polled said 26 was the age that 'started adulthood'....so until then...people are still 'kids'....
In a way I agree with this...in my experience anyway. In my early 20's....I had kids....but I was far from being your typical 'responsible' suburban mother/wife/woman. Most of my friends were still single and/or didn't have a family....I partied alot with them and did some pretty crazy things.
As my late 20's approached I became more sensible and responsible.
Yes, Colin, I believe this had EVERYTHING to do with my surroundings and society....
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I don't know which way the cause & effect runs but I suspect both. 14 year old boys think it is cool to get laid and 14 year old girls think it is slutty. Where'd they get that idea? I don't think a girl is hard-wired to not like sex at a young age. I think maybe the opposite is true. When Mother Nature roars, she roars and her venom is obvious.
Assumably, two hundred years ago many young teen girls thought it quite normal to have sex.
Attitudes towards marriage, sex, taboos and so forth often spring forth from societal needs
[colonization] and biological ones [incest is bad]. At other times they must arise chaotically with no obvious advantage to society at all [anal sex, homosexuality]. Maybe it's just that the interests of the individual, the family, and the society aren't always homogeneous.
A darwinian societal and tribal culling mechanism may have been and may still be at work.
Those societies with the wrong sexual taboos may have perished because it may have made them inferior to the tribe next door. Ten guys and one hundred women screams for polygamy. Too many men? Send them off to war. Men are expendable anyway.
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Originally posted by gigi@May 14 2003, 11:25 AM I heard on the news the other day, a poll revealed that the majority of those polled said 26 was the age that 'started adulthood'....so until then...people are still 'kids'....
They should poll the 25 year olds.
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Originally posted by Colin@May 14 2003, 09:19 AM So is there a double-standard [as always]? 14 year old boys have sex because they are horny, 14 year old girls are young, naive, and get duped? I think "society" needs to stop thinking of women this way.
They should be able to do whatever they want with their own body. [? ? ?]. Or no?
There certainly is a double standard and I am guilty of this. On one hand you want to say, “It’s ok for a boy to be sexually promiscuous. After all he’s a boy, soon to be a man. Women are pure, helpless and easily manipulated.”
When I hear this crock of shit I want to choke someone. When I was 8 years old I began touching myself. When I was 10 I was hiding in the closet with my step-sister playing some nasty doctor game. It’s natural for children to be curious. What changed was when I became a teen, trust adult and taught not to question authority only to have it violated.
I agree with Forest that it’s really the balance of age and the dynamic. If a 14 year old girl in drawn to an 18 year old boy, it’s mostly likely because women mature a little faster then men. If a 14 year old is drawn to a 34 year old man or woman, it’s the responsibility of that adult to protect that child even if that child is curious or make sexual advances. That adult should take in consideration the emotional history or the reason why that may be making those advances in the first place. Instead of selfishly acting on libido and taboo lust, they should graciously decline and perhaps give a positive shove into the right direction. That child is most likely, yet not always, reaching out for love and attention. The most perfect dynamic in the world is to have love, trust and then sex. This is not to say that you can’t have good sex without love, that’s stupid but a 14 year old isn’t experienced enough in life to know what that means. Let them be a kid first, experiment with other their own age and develop their own path with GUIDENCE & DIRECTION.
Damn I went on a rant & I’m still confused. We’d like to say that there is an exception to every rule and perhaps there is. This is one that has a personal agenda.
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Originally posted by SykkBoy@May 14 2003, 02:54 PM would it have been different had the adult who picked you up had been a woman?
He would have been happy as hell to have escaped the pages of the Sunday Kmart ad bra section for a chance with a real live 30 something chick. Blue light special, red light district. Blue light special, red light district.
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Originally posted by SykkBoy@May 14 2003, 02:54 PM does the emotional baggage that comes with a boy's molestation differ if the molester is male rather than female? I already know about the emotional scarring a girl has at the hands of a molester, but just wonder from a male's perspective...and does a lot of this emotional scarring (male and female) come from consent or non-consent (in other words if the younger person consents to the act and it's not a forced rape situation)?
Yes and Yes, the scaring is worse if it is a non consensual act
Also a child really can't consent to a sexual act as they do not fully comprehend the act and it's ramifications
and I'll leave it at that
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Well, if you've been to the mall since the weather has started getting warm and you're a straight male, I'm sure you cant help but do a double take on what some of the young girls are wearing.
I'm guessing most are in the 15-17 year old range, but I swear when I was that age, I dont remember them being built like that. And if they were, their daddies didn't let 'em out of the house wearing anything that showed it off.
Their bodies are definitely "ripe". However, if you want a reality check, all you have to do is listen in on their conversations for a few minutes. Few are mentally and emotionally mature even though their body is.
Originally posted by SykkBoy@May 14 2003, 02:54 PM does the emotional baggage that comes with a boy's molestation differ if the molester is male rather than female? I already know about the emotional scarring a girl has at the hands of a molester, but just wonder from a male's perspective...and does a lot of this emotional scarring (male and female) come from consent or non-consent (in other words if the younger person consents to the act and it's not a forced rape situation)?
and when does the emotional scarring start?
during the activities, or years later when society has tells that person what they did was wrong?
There's 2 different sides to this ... there's minors being forced or coerced into a situation by either violent force or emotional manipulation, and there's minors who make a conscious choice to partake in something despite understanding fully that its wrong.
In my situation, I was so in love with the person that I didn't give a shit what anyone else thought ... I was 14, he was 24, but the ONLY time that became relevant was in our interaction with society as a 'pair' ... we never went out together or did normal couple stuff, but when you have a relationship with someone that doesn't have all the baggage that comes with a *normal* relationship, its amazing how pure it seems.
When I look at it from the outside I think its disgusting, but also that its none of anyone else's business. In many cases, it IS disgusting, but those are social values we force upon ourselves and upon each other. THAT is what causes emotional scarring - the effect of others convincing you that what makes you feel good is wrong. This is why so much emotional scarring happens when young boys & girls get abused - often they enjoy many aspects of it but feel ashamed because a 'dirty' act made them feel good. You must be a bad person if sex feels good when you are 14? Or you must have just been brainwashed?
To this day, i've never felt as purely connected to another person as I was to him for the 3 years we continued our 'relationship' ... but I don't feel that way about him any more, although he is still very special to me ... my adult mind has analyzed the reasons a hundred times over and sometimes I think that it was just my young impressionable mind allowing myself to think i was in love ... but when i close my eyes and be 100% honest with myself, I know that there is no purer love than what you feel when you are far far away from society's values & perceptions of what love *should* be like, & just enjoying the company of 2 people who have a special bond.
The only reason these rules exist is because our society has evolved to a point where a person is not considered old enough to make decisions until they are 18 - and yet I left home at 17 to go to college, looked after my sister 5 nights a week while the folks ran the restaurant, bled once a month since i was 12, and had a part time job from the age of 14 ...
I don't believe the law should be any different, because in MOST cases, the laws we value are correct and there for our safety ... but with that said, applying those laws to every single situation and judging those involved with black & white rules that are made to group & protect the 'masses' is just as wrong.
How many of you drank alcohol or smoked pot before the age of 18 or 21?
Are you emotionally scarred?
The problem isn't as simple as teenagers having sex with adults, its society's general attitude to sex as a 'dirty' thing ... If society accepted sex as a natural, beautiful thing instead of the media adding descriptive words to make it a dirty act, perhaps the youth in our society would have a better understanding of what sex is and the potential responsibilities that goes with it.
Women, especially girls, will ALWAYS use sex as a tool, and girls are discovering that they posess this tool younger and younger. We need more education & support for young people where sex is concerned and less judgemental fuckwits placing their social values on other people's situations because they don't follow the 'rules'.
Originally posted by Vick@May 14 2003, 07:46 PM Also a child really can't consent to a sexual act as they do not fully comprehend the act and it's ramifications
and I'll leave it at that
Please don't ...
I'd like to hear examples of what you think a child doesn't comprehend & what ramifications exist?
Also a child really can't consent to a sexual act as they do not fully comprehend the act and it's ramifications
I think that point actually applies to anybody who is new to sex... i think that would apply equally well to a 25 year old virgin.
While i dont disagree that lines certainly need to be drawn, the laws are just plain silly.
How about this.
A 28 year old boy with a 19 year old girl.
An 18 year old boy with a 17 year old girl.
An 18 year old boy with a 16 year old girl.
An 18 year old boy with a 15 year old girl.
An 18 year old boy with a 14 year old girl.
A 17 year old boy with a 13 year old girl.
A 17 year old boy with a 12 year old girl.
Clearly we start violating what is right when we hit a 17 with a 12 year old right? Or do we? I mean.. it's legal. But one cant really argue that a 12 year old girl has a level of maturity equal to or even close to that of a 17 year old boy... but it's legal. But the 18 year old boy and the 17 year old girl? They are so close in age and maturity (in fact likely the girl is far more mature)... but the boy could be arrested for that one. And the age difference is tremendous between the 28 and 19 year old but everybody is an "adult".
What really offends people isnt age differences.. it's when one person takes advantage of another person in a predatory way. If you can find a way to make that illegal i'll vote for it.. but then you'll have to shut down every bar in america where men buy women drinks and say " i love you" to get some one night nookie.
I dont like laws that regulate sexuality. Parents should monitor who their children hang out with and teach them about sex and responsibility before they have an opportunity to get involved with the wrong people.. and in the end, sex is a big part of our humanity... whether it's pretty or not.
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Originally posted by Hooper@May 14 2003, 09:34 PM Parents should monitor who their children hang out with and teach them about sex and responsibility before they have an opportunity to get involved
Bravo
CJ - in answer to your question
Example a 21 year old man coerces a 10 year old boy into sexual acts
That 10 year old child really doesn't understand (the act of) sex (with another person)
The ramifactions start with self doubt, questions of self worth and questioning morals and self on many levels within the child as they grow into adulthood
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Originally posted by Hell Puppy@May 14 2003, 10:05 PM I'm guessing most are in the 15-17 year old range, but I swear when I was that age, I dont remember them being built like that. And if they were, their daddies didn't let 'em out of the house wearing anything that showed it off.
Girls in America (not sure if it's happening elsewhere) are going through puberty at an earlier age than they were even just a generation ago. In addition look at most girl's role models - Britany, Madonna, Christina, etc. Popular female singers were dressed in rags when we were kids.
Every time my son shows up with another female, I remind myself how glad I am that I didn't have a daughter I had to worry about.
"When you have a boy all you do is worry about what he's doing with is penis.. when you have a girl you have to worry about what EVERYBODY is doing with their penis"
I think this is all just about societal conditioning.
Not in any way advocating 25 year old man 10 year old boy sex.. but those feelings of doubt and self worth come from a society that says sex is naughty, homosexuality is bad, etc..etc..etc..
Did you know there are society's where sex is considered fun and natural and the attitude of the culture reflect it... I doubt they have much self doubt and shame for having sex in those societies.
I took a course on human sexuality, was amazingly interesting.. there are small socities where it's encouraged that the boys and girls have sex as frequently as they can so that they will be better lovers for their permanent mates when the time comes... there are cultures where the boys are ENCOURAGED to sneak into the bedrooms of girls they like and copulate with them (not forcibly of course.. different culture).. families snicker about it the same way we snicker about teenagers making out in the car before they come inside from a date. In greek culture, men and young men were commonly lovers.. in middle easter culture (and utah) men have many wives...
I think it's easy to forget that we live in basically the most sexually conservative and repressed nation in the world and that we ARE followers because we are taught certain things growing up... before we are really old enough to question whether those "morals" are right or wrong.
JMHO. Fuck i'm typing a lot tonight. Do you have more respect for me for my post count? ;-)
Last edited by Hooper at May 14 2003, 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by Vick@May 14 2003, 09:46 PM The ramifactions start with self doubt, questions of self worth and questioning morals and self on many levels within the child as they grow into adulthood
I agree that it happens, but I think we have brought this on ourselves as a society ...
and the more fancy psychological terms that we come up with to describe this trauma, the more trauma seems to occur in the victim.
I've always wondered if there would be so many psychological problems if there were less psychologists
If a 10 year old boy were molestered by a grown man, but he understood that all of his own reactions were natural although the situation was legally wrong, would he still be as emotionally traumatized?
If a child understood why that yummy fuzzy feeling happens at the pit of the belly when a sexual thing happens, would they be traumatized by their guilt and feelings of being dirty?
We repeatedly tell that 10 year old boy that what happened to him was wrong and disgusting, eventually he's going to start to believe it, & doubt himself and as an adult, he is convinced that something traumatic happened to him when he was a child, when at the time it really didn't seem like that big a deal & it wouldn't be today if he understood the feelings he had.
I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of these situations, because you only have to look at some of the sites that crop up in our industry to see how many adults take advantage of children against their will and how many child victims there are ... but, our society tries so hard to invent pain and trauma where there doesn't need to be any. There are 'syndromes' and 'conditions' for every event in your life ... mommy didn't hold me enough, mommy held me too often, my teacher spanked me etc
Society encourages people to have traumatic events in our lives, we love pain, we embrace it & treat these traumas as our identity & as an excuse for our behaviour. "I was raped when i was 10 therefore i have pent up feelings of agression and i beat up my wife" or "I am unable to orgasm with my partner because I was sexually abused as a child" etc etc ...
The human body was built to conceive children at the age of 12 - that's the only relevant physical factor to the entire argument.
Originally posted by cj@May 14 2003, 10:20 PM If a 10 year old boy were molestered by a grown man, but he understood that all of his own reactions were natural
Ok this is a area where I may disagree
From my viewpoint I think it may not be possible for a 10 year old boy to understand his own reactions being natural or even if those reactions are natural or if there exists the possibility of a natural reaction
Think about being 10 again
Life was basically school, baseball and friends
You may have gotten an inkling of a possible sexual feeling/gratification but it doesn't really extend into physical involvement in most cases
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agreed. but where do you draw the line/law? 12? 13? 15? 18?
this is just a theoretical discussion of course. and when we're done i'm going to go kiss my baby jesus statue, listen to rush limbaugh and drink my ovaltine like a good boy.
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Originally posted by Vick@May 14 2003, 10:42 PM From my viewpoint I think it may not be possible for a 10 year old boy to understand his own reactions being natural or even if those reactions are natural or if there exists the possibility of a natural reaction
Think about being 10 again
Life was basically school, baseball and friends
You may have gotten an inkling of a possible sexual feeling/gratification but it doesn't really extend into physical involvement in most cases
i remember life at 10 being about school, baseball & friends ... definately
i went to school and played with as many boys as i could (i touched a boys pee pee in the middle of class when i was 6!), i played baseball (& watched) so i could try to get a glimpse of a pee pee, & my friends were all either boys or other girls who liked pee pee's ... when i was about 8 or 9, my female cousin & I played with each others bits in bed one night ... when i was 12, the 'gang' of friends i had at school were all desperate to lose our virginity - it was like a curse. we all pretended we had sex at various stages throughout the year, but all went off to high school virgins.
if i had've had an opportunity to have sex at the age of 12 i would have, without question, and i'm SO glad i didn't. Between 12 & 14 lots of kissing & fondling happened in between, and i WAS ready to have sex when i did.
maybe age 10 is about baseball & school for some kids, but there's always the group gathering behind the sports shed for a kiss & a grope who don't give a shit about baseball.
everything is more simple when we are kids, because we don't understand all the details ... we let kids play baseball even though they don't all understand the rules ...
with all of that said however, the hypothetical situation we are discussing is wrong, but the only person doing anything wrong is the 21 year old, not the 10 year old boy.
Originally posted by cj@May 14 2003, 09:10 PM THAT is what causes emotional scarring - the effect of others convincing you that what makes you feel good is wrong.
This is precisely what I think also.
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Originally posted by cj@May 14 2003, 09:10 PM The only reason these rules exist is because our society has evolved to a point where a person is not considered old enough to make decisions until they are 18 - and yet I left home at 17 to go to college, looked after my sister 5 nights a week while the folks ran the restaurant, bled once a month since i was 12, and had a part time job from the age of 14 ...
I don't believe the law should be any different, because in MOST cases, the laws we value are correct and there for our safety ... but with that said, applying those laws to every single situation and judging those involved with black & white rules that are made to group & protect the 'masses' is just as wrong.
Again, so right on. I didn't think I'd find a kindred spirit on this topic.
Pun intended.
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Originally posted by gigi@May 14 2003, 10:59 PM I completely agree with both Hooper and CJ....it is TOTALLY societal morality that plays a HUGE role in how we experience 'the experience'.
I'm with you three. I have nothing to add. It's already been said above.
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Originally posted by cj@May 14 2003, 11:58 PM i went to school and played with as many boys as i could (i touched a boys pee pee in the middle of class when i was 6!), i played baseball (& watched) so i could try to get a glimpse of a pee pee, & my friends were all either boys or other girls who liked pee pee's ... when i was about 8 or 9, my female cousin & I played with each others bits in bed one night ... when i was 12, the 'gang' of friends i had at school were all desperate to lose our virginity - it was like a curse. we all pretended we had sex at various stages throughout the year, but all went off to high school virgins.
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