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Originally posted by XXXManager@Apr 11 2003, 12:10 PM That should be surprising only to people who think Iran,Syria,Lebanon,Lybia,... is as peaceful and friendly as Iraq was :angry:
Leabanon, now? When did Lebanon begin to threaten the national security interests of the United States?
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Answer: Who said it has to be a threat to the US as you define it? It has to be a threat to the US as the "captains" of the US define it.
Lebanon is a fertile bed for terrorism (being a tool of Syria does that to a country)
I don't think that Lebanon is safe because they have no oil, no. And I am very aware of the fact that I am not a "Captain" of the U.S. (whatever the fuck that is).
But there are lots of places that are fertile grounds for terrorism. Like it or not, the people of the United States are probably more concerned about threats to the United States. Lebanon does not represent a threat to the United States. The arguement that Syria represents a threat to the United States is a bit of a stretch, frankly, particularly when you factor in North Korea.
As a matter of fact, IF the priority of this administration is to go after al Qaida - remember al Qaida? - then they will turn their attention to places like Indonesia where al Qaida is real, and not just a whisper.
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You know, I've been thinking. I'm an old Navy man.
We've got all this military might in the Middle East, and we could put it to good use.
Let's use our military to track down and bring to final justice all those reponsible for bombing U.S. ships in the Middle East, regardless of what regime is harboring them.
Doesn't matter if they killed 17 sailors or 35+ sailors - and we should apply the same "statute of limitations" on those crimes as we have, say, against Nazi war criminals.
We could call it "Operation Liberty-Cole."
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Apr 11 2003, 02:20 PM You know, I've been thinking. I'm an old Navy man.
We've got all this military might in the Middle East, and we could put it to good use.
Let's use our military to track down and bring to final justice all those reponsible for bombing U.S. ships in the Middle East, regardless of what regime is harboring them.
Doesn't matter if they killed 17 sailors or 35+ sailors - and we should apply the same "statute of limitations" on those crimes as we have, say, against Nazi war criminals.
We could call it "Operation Liberty-Cole."
Good thinking!
It's not THAT far from Iraq to Yemen.
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Yemen was part of my ..... part
As to "captains", I mean the people who "navigate" the US "ship". More clearly - the people who knows and decides who to go to war with next
If you think US is in war with Al-Quaeda you are misinformed.
Your US is engaged in a campaign with is much more comprehensive than that. If you would look at the picture you will see the little details in the composition stretched across the canvas. You will see little strokes Syria with a touch of Lebanon, you will see an underlying basic colors of Iran and the african influences of Lybia and the shadows from the north as well as bright spots from the exotic philippines etc...
You may think its about Al-Quaeda but then again - you will over time be reprogrammed to pronounce Ansar et Islam, El-Sayaf, Hizbollah (Guess where they are located *hint* Lebanon) and other terrorist organizations from all over the enlightened world.
Just my 2 cents
Last edited by XXXManager at Apr 11 2003, 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by XXXManager@Apr 11 2003, 03:08 PM "the people who know", "you are misinformed", "shadows" "You may think its about", "reprogrammed", "enlightened world".
Strangely Orwellian.
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Originally posted by XXXManager@Apr 11 2003, 03:08 PM Yemen was part of my ..... part
As to "captains", I mean the people who "navigate" the US "ship". More clearly - the people who knows and decides who to go to war with next
If you think US is in war with Al-Quaeda you are misinformed.
Your US is engaged in a campaign with is much more comprehensive than that. If you would look at the picture you will see the little details in the composition stretched across the canvas. You will see little strokes Syria with a touch of Lebanon, you will see an underlying basic colors of Iran and the african influences of Lybia and the shadows from the north as well as bright spots from the exotic philippines etc...
You may think its about Al-Quaeda but then again - you will over time be reprogrammed to pronounce Ansar et Islam, El-Sayaf, Hizbollah (Guess where they are located *hint* Lebanon) and other terrorist organizations from all over the enlightened world.
Just my 2 cents
We've got plenty of troops in the area - send some to Yemen, and send some the other direction after the rest of the cirminals and fools that attack the United States.
I'm all for going to Lebanon IF we keep right on truckin and bring to justice the terrorist-criminals that ordered the attack on the U.S. Liberty and have continued the coverup of the reasons for it. While we are at it, we can bring to justice criminal foreign regimes that commit espionage on my country - rather than send back their spy, perhaps we should grab his masters and teach them their proper place in the world.
I am a secular American - I don't give a fine flying fuck what kind of funny headgear people wear when they attack me, and my memory is quite long.
You, my friend, put me in an extremely uncomfortable postion - why, I'd sooner admit that MikeAI was right than to find myself agreeing with Pat Buchannan. But you and the offal you are spewing make me wonder.
Last edited by PornoDoggy at Apr 11 2003, 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Apr 11 2003, 08:28 PM You, my friend, put me in an extremely uncomfortable postion - why, I'd sooner admit that MikeAI was right than to find myself agreeing with Pat Buchannan. But you and the offal you are spewing make me wonder.
If only I understood what made you write this.
Last edited by XXXManager at Apr 11 2003, 09:21 PM
Lebanon is not the problem, Syria is the problem....
Can you check to see if they have a McDonalds?
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I think everything you wrote there fits an attitude of a hateful and angry person.
And what is that twisted last post of yours or its direction has to do with the thread in question?
slavdogg: Globalization at its best
Last edited by XXXManager at Apr 11 2003, 10:55 PM
Please explain to me what you find hateful or angry about my last post.
It's a serious question. I have no idea what you are talking about when you describe it that way. I'm sorry if you are put off by the fact that I view EVERY nation in the Middle East with equal skepticism.
As far as what it has to do with the subject at hand ... whether the United States will find itself in another war within the year - I would think that is obvious. For one thing, I don't think you are merely describing a war against Islamic fundamentalism.
You made the statement that the United States is not at war with al Qaida.
Trust me, that would come as a considerable suprise to most of the American people. The "captains", as you describe them, could find it more difficult to sell expanding this war - which was sold as being to eliminate WMD, or free the Iraqi people, or whatever the justification du jour is - than they think.
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Please explain to me what you find hateful or angry about my last post
Your "plugging" of Israel reminds me of an interview I saw yesterday on one of the US news channels with... Saeb Arikat (one of Arrafat's spokesmen).
He was asked what he thinks of what is happening in Iraq.
His answer was something like: Israel is doing illegal things in the occupied territories and....
Can you see what I mean? If you don't read again the question and the answer.
To clarify things so you don't get offended (like I did by how you described my valid post) and defensive - I didn't say YOU are such but just that your post/attitude is such.
Quote:
For one thing, I don't think you are merely describing a war against Islamic fundamentalism.
You are right. I don't describe a war against Islamic fundamentalism (only) but a more vast war against terrorism and its safe-haven countries. Most of it is Islamic fundamentalists - that’s a fact - but I was merely describing the war as a very long campaign against terrorism. That’s why I included the Philippines, N.Korea, and Lebanon even though (for some strange reason) you don't find it bright clear that it is a threat to the US in the long term.
Quote:
You made the statement that the United States is not at war with Al-Quaeda
Trust me, that would come as a considerable surprise to most of the American people.
I know it will come as a surprise to you and many other Americans. That’s why your president and his "captains" are doing it in a step-by-step way. You are a nation in a waking up process - that doesn’t want grasp the big picture too fast. You feel better being presented with the concept in "chuncks". Just my honest opinion. All I hope is – that you will have the stomach to withstand the journey.
You seem too be convinced that your concern should be against Al-Quaeda, while at the same time admit that…
Quote:
The "captains"... could find it more difficult to sell expanding this war - which was sold as being to eliminate WMD, or free the Iraqi people, or whatever the justification du jour is - than they think.
You are basically admitting that the war in Iraq has nothing to do directly with Al-quaeda. The connection is not as direct as you today think. The connection is terrorism on the global level. Yes - they will have hard time doing that if they continue to fail educating you about the seriousness of matters.
If my memory servers me right, I have read several posts of yours, across different boards and see a connection there with respect to Israel. You are entitled for an opinion – don’t misunderstand me. It’s just that I find it hard to receive criticism from someone who does not associate himself with a country - and if he finally does - dissociate himself from everything that is not pure and good, like he is infallible or a saint who never does wrong.
Whatever criticism you have towards Israel - I can match it with examples regarding the US (that you seem to shy away from associating yourself even with it) that are far worse than anything you can come up with. Think about that a little. Think about it more than a little.
When someone says - this did wrong, this did wrong,... as if he is a saint that has very hard time digesting the “evil” of the others’ actions – I have hard time taking him seriously since he never accepts responsibility for anything. If he does - he has to think twice about what “he” did/do before criticizing others - and in your case, Israel should be somewhere in the bottom of the list of countries you should criticize. IMHO.
I did answer your question seriously. Think about what I wrote.
Now wait a minute. My comments regarding the murdered sailors of the USS Liberty, and the espionage committed against my country were offered only as an explanation as to why I view Israel with the exact same skepticism as I do any other Middle Eastern nation. BTW, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't care to address those issues. I agree with you completely that they have nothing to do with the war in Iraq, and they were never intended as comments that relate directly to the current situation.
However, I'm impressed with your ability to take that and use it to compare me to a spokesman for Arafat. You would do quite well in American conservative politics. Do you speak evangelical?
(Out of respect for your skills, I will resist the temptation to suggest that you may be right in arguing that nothing good could come of allowing a terrorist group to form a government. I could suggest that historical precedent exists, even if they only killed mad dogs and Englishmen. Please - don't take that one seriously, okay?).
Now, I had assumed that the patronizing tone of your first several posts was due to a language thing - but it's pretty obvious that it's not, so I will make this crystal clear. I am not some provincial bumpkin who is unaware of the nasty, dangerous nature of the world. I was aware of the nature of Islamic fundamentalism BEFORE the U.S. puppet fled Iran and the Mullahs took over. The problem is not new at all - it's merely another variation of response to what has been called neocolonialism, and it's been going on for decades in one form or another.
I am far more worried about North Korea and an Asian arms race, about the India/Pakistan dispute, about the chaos that is Indonesia, and the unrest in the Philippines than I am about Lebanon, or Syria, or Iran. The threat presented to the United States by those countries has in fact diminished drastically since Gulf War I - some Americans would do well to consider that when they evaluate the legacy of George I. The threat those nations present to other countries have a myriad of causes, not all of them having anything to do with the evil intent of those regimes.
I am not the sort of fool who believes we can negotiate with terrorists or "understand their point of view," but I am also most definitely not interested in recruiting for them and continuing the conflict indefinitely by military incursions that will do absolutely nothing to solve the problem. The people who love to point out that "this is not Vietnam" probably don't have a clue what I mean when I say that it wasn't a Vietnam scenario - until now that the fighting stops. We won't know that for sure for years.
Which brings me to alQaida - the single greatest threat to the United States, even if only a minor annoyance to some other countries (regardless of their rhetoric). I had to laugh when you said "You are basically admitting that the war in Iraq has nothing to do directly with alQaida. The connection is not as direct as you today think." Golly gee, you mean there isn’t a connection? Fuck, I've been screaming that for months at every bobble-headed Bushite who repeats whatever Ari Fleischer spouts (Mon & Thu - terrorism; Tue & Fri - WMD; Wed & Sat - "eeeee-villl dick-tater"; Sunday - run 'em all up the flagpole and see what they salute).
BTW ... if you stick around the board for a while you will find that I am far from being uncritical of my own country. Why, there are well-educated folks around here who can't decide if I'm a traitor, a defeatist, or just an all around menace to society.
In short, I understand fully well what you are saying - I just don't believe it. It's not a question of me not having a series of facts that you possess - it’s that I view the same facts as you do from a very different perspective and reject your conclusions.
Last edited by PornoDoggy at Apr 11 2003, 10:23 PM
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Do you trust "yourself"? Maybe you are self-skeptic as well? You think US security forces can not be associated with such things? If so - maybe the entire world - every country, including yours, can not be trusted? So you are "evenly" skeptical about all the countries in the world and all of them are just as bad (otherwise you would consider stick with the bad bunch when discussing things in this thread)? If so - what do YOU stand for?
Quote:
I'm impressed with your ability to take that and use it to compare me to a spokesman for Arafat...
I am amazed by the way you get offended instead of understanding the similarities. You "plugged" Israel when I saw no connection to the thread. I will go and look again if there is any logical connection that required your input about Israel.. Maybe you think its just another Terror supporting country - and felt compelled to remind everyone how evil the regime there is.
Quote:
I am far more worried about North Korea and an Asian arms race, about the India/Pakistan ... than I am about Lebanon, or Syria, or Iran.
Well. Your country leaderships and security and armed forces believe (since ever) otherwise. Maybe they know the facts? Or maybe it’s all about Oil? Or maybe they are puppets of Israel and sacrifice billions on billions and lives of US soldiers just to "fight Israel's war" because of the Zionist control over the US? or maybe everyone there is plain dumb and never in the last 30-40 years stopped to think maybe you are right?
Since you apparently disagree with the official US stand - I wish to believe you are smart enough to think something along the line of the last option.
(or maybe you are wrong there?) little fact: Iran is the biggest financer of terrorism around the world - and the US
Quote:
The threat presented to the United States by those countries has in fact diminished drastically
Your government and security forces think otherwise and I for one agree with them.
Quote:
I am not the sort of fool who believes we can negotiate with terrorists or "understand their point of view," but I am also most definitely not interested in recruiting for them and continuing the conflict indefinitely by military incursions that will do absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
Fair enough. So what do you suggest?
Quote:
Which brings me to alQaida ... I had to laugh when you said "You are basically admitting that the war in Iraq has nothing to do directly with alQaida. The connection is not as direct as you today think." Golly gee, you mean there isn’t a connection? Fuck, I've been screaming that for months
I didn't say that. not as such. I merely pointed out you self-admitted that’s what you think. I do actually think the connection is not as strong and automatic as US people were "educated" to believe - but I do believe there is a connection. Those people do not act in vaccume. They are not as dumb, isolated and incommunicative as you or others mght suggest. But - read my post and see I stated that you are being "educated" so that you go along with the plan that your leaderships want you to take (rightly so if you ask me). There is a connection as I said - which is terrorism. But since it seems some of your people have difficulties with indirect connections it has to be presented to you as very direct.
Quote:
BTW ... if you stick around the board for a while you will find that I am far from being uncritical of my own country. Why, there are well-educated folks around here who can't decide if I'm a traitor, a defeatist, or just an all around menace to society.
That’s exactly my point. You have no country. You stand for nothing but secret ideals that no one knows what they are or what they call for. You only state that everyone else is wrong and bad. That’s not a very serious stand in a discussion.
If I summarize what you seem to be saying - it’s like that.
"Arab terrorism is bad. All terrorism is bad. The world is a bad place. BTW - ISRAEL's harmful acts against the US in the past are bad and I associate them with bad things. US aggression is (somewhat) bad. We should do the right thing. We should solve the real problem. We can not negotiate with terrorism but violence leads to violence. Let’s deal with the real threats."
You see? All of that means nothing really. You are a perfect being that does no evil. Very handy in a discussion – isn’t it? - but holds no water in real life. It’s like the pope’s stand.
Quote:
In short, I understand fully well what you are saying - I just don't believe it. It's not a question of me not having a series of facts that you possess - it’s that I view the same facts as you do from a very different perspective and reject your conclusions.
Fair enough. We are allowed to disagree. That certain fact does not make any of us a bad person. If we all thought the same it would have been very boring
Last edited by XXXManager at Apr 12 2003, 01:19 PM
What is it that you think here - am I unable to "think US security forces can not be associated with" bad things, or do I "have no country... stand for nothing but secret ideals."?
I was not offended by your attempt to compare me to Arafat - I found the pathetic attempt amusing, and almost refreshing. It's a nice variation from the communist and traitor comments I get, and I can think of at least one GFY poster who would probably disagree with you on that comparison.
Most of what you keep presenting as facts are actually opinions - opinions on which we can obviously find little common ground beyond "terrorists are bad." What you call "attempts to lead" us poor dumb Americans to "enlightenment" about the true nature of the big bad world can be interpreted as attempts to sell us a bill of goods, too - the fact that you find the bill of goods in your best interests doesn't mean shit to me.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Apr 12 2003, 03:10 PM ...I was not offended by your attempt to compare me to Arafat...
Now wait a minute you yourself!
So now I compared you to Arafat?
Dude - you are on drugs - aren't you? Better learn to read before you write. :grrr:
No wonder your leaders need to educate you and force-feed you with easy to digest reasons for why they do things - if you can't even understand a little analogy on a message board.
My suggestion: Scroll up - read again - realize how off the mark you are - scroll back down - apologize
If anything can be said about the analogy I made is - that I compared your approach to the one of Saeb Arikat in relation to your pointless plugging of Israel.
I see that when words run out - it's time for side-track irellevant offense. Very mature.
Im still waiting for your realization of your mistake and the apology. I am not sure spelling "analogy" and quoting Miriam webster dictionary is exacly what I am expecting
You will be waiting for a long time because the apology is not forthcoming. I don't mind apologizing when I'm wrong.
You are the one who continues to insist my statements regarding Israel were more than "background" offered only to explain my attitude in general.
You are the one who can't decide if I'm incapable of an objective attitude toward any country other than America, or if I just hate everything.
You are the one who continues to claim your opinions are the only valid facts, and that those poor ignorant fools without your vast knowledge and tremendous enlightenment need to be force fed until they "see the light."
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apol·o·gy
Pronunciation: &-'pä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
1 a : a formal justification : DEFENSE b : EXCUSE 2a 2 : an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret
Etymology: Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French apologie, from Late Latin apologia, from Greek, from apo- + logos speech -- more at LEGEND
Date: 1533
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04-11-2003
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