What I really think about the war

[Almighty Colin]

Powerful nations manipulate the world to their advantage.

The countries that have WMD's are trying to stop the proliferation of WMD's to countries that would likely use them against them.

Any country in the position of those countries would act similarly. Countries with WMD's that don't perceive the likelihood of those weapons being used against them are less concerned with proliferation. Countries that perceive that those weapons might be used against their "enemies" might even encourage it.

I would argue that every country tries to influence and shape it's environment to it's advantage. Many European countries act through the EU, Arabic countries meet at the Arab League, terrorist organizations terrorize, OPEC cuts off the oil supply, countries sell arms to other countries that will most shape the globe to their advantage. The US does it, Russia does it, China does it, France does it, Britain does it. What nation doesn't do it?

I would also argue that for the most part countries try to wield influence in the world in direct proportion to their ability to do so. America's policies stand out to many right now because of its unprecedented ability to bribe countries into favorable positions. She also has a powerful army that she is willing to use for political aims.

Anti-americanism is on the rise. It has been for decades. Attacks on the world trade center occured not just in 2001 but also in 1993. Embassy bombings have been too commonplace for
decades.

Many in the world criticize the US for it's obsession with violence, it's capital punishment laws, it's continual war on drugs, it's environmental wastefulness and it's particularly religious population. It is interesting that America has many of these things in common with Middle Eastern countries.

The view of the US in the Middle Easy is largely negative. This is a direct result of it's foreign policy especially as regards to the most unifying factor in the Middle East - policy towards Israel. US policy in the Middle-East is always viewed there through the lenses of Zionism and Colonialism.

Once such positions were balanced by Soviet power. Many countries in the world looked to the US as a balancing force to the USSR. Pick a side. No doubt, some of those same people are now looking for something to balance US power. The Soviet vacuum has greatly upset the balance of power in the world.

Some people want to adhere to a "doctrine of fairness". Why can the US have WMD's and not everyone?

Many Americans adhere to a different "doctrine of fairness". If you had them first, would you want anyone else to have them? Not me. Bomb Saddam.

[Winetalk.com]

here is the argument I heard from a well noted arab american journalist:

if DEMOCRATIC elections were held in Saudi Arabia,
Bin Laden would have won!

if DEMOCRATIC elections were held in Egypt,
the most clerical party would have won!


same for Jordan...

do we wanna bring Democracy to the region?????

"don't wish something to much or you might get it"

hard for me to argue with this argument

[Almighty Colin]

Serge,

Agreed. Democracy in a land where the people hate us and the leaders don't isn't likely to make relations better. Possible, but not likely. Difficult to say. Sometimes people do peculiar things once empowered.

I'm all for taking out Saddam but have no hopes for democracy in Iraq as a long-term stabilizing effect.

[Winetalk.com]

so, Colin, where do we go from here?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Mar 28 2003, 07:19 AM
so, Colin, where do we go from here?

Cross our fingers.

[Rox]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 28 2003, 04:04 AM
I'm all for taking out Saddam but have no hopes for democracy in Iraq as a long-term stabilizing effect.

Wow. Glad to see someone MUCH smarter than me sees things the way I do.

[gigi]

Agreed. I am very leary of bringing democracy to such a place....

It's definitely not the 'fix all' many believe it will be....

[FATPad]

It's easier to get new ideas into a democratic country than a dictatorship or monarchy.

Democratic countries are usually a little more open to information. Outside information and ideas is what makes the changes, not simply being able to cast a vote for your leader.

So while making Iraq a democracy may not fix everything, if the society can be opened up and new ideas injected and allowed to take hold, the long term changes should be for the better.

At least that's what I always thought.

[Almighty Colin]

Hey FATPad,

Nice to see ya over here. :-)

[FATPad]

hehe. I couldn't help it. GFY is being taken over by retards. I like posting retarded shit as much as anyone but damn...

[Rox]

Received this from my former roommate, a physicist with a law degree (can you say, "overachiever?" I knew you could!). Thought I'd share.

I have been in conversation via the internet with a war-supporter (for lack of a better phrase). He offered a three point argument (not his own, but one he felt had legitimacy), the first point of which was:

1. We have actually been "at war" with these terrorists for 22 years (he then provided a list of attacks on America, or foreign-American soil, such as the 1993 and 2001 WTC attacks, attacks on our embassies, and the USS Cole).

So, I did a little research, and based on the events he listed, America has lost approximately 166 people per year to terrorist attacks over the last 22 years. To put this in perspective, we lose 40,000 per year on our highways, and 550,000 per year to cancer. Overall, the risk of being an American and being killed by a terrorist on an annual basis is slightly more than being killed by lighting, and slightly less than being killed by an airline crash, if you only fly one round trip anywhere during the entire year.

My point (and, I am making one), is I think that as a matter of policy, the U.S. should have examined, and still needs to examine, the overall risks to Americans from acts of terror in formulating an appropriate response.

I think these are the kinds of things we need to be pointing out to our elected representatives (which, obviously, excludes Mr. Bush).

This is the same gal who's been getting trouble from one of our senators for speaking publicly about her opposition to a bill the senator authored, which if passed, would cripple the ability of many medical facilities to detect and treat certain cancers.

She always was a rebel.



Last edited by Rox at Mar 28 2003, 08:09 AM

[gigi]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 28 2003, 07:59 AM
Hey FATPad,

Nice to see ya over here. :-)

Ditto! Nice to see you her FP!

I agree with what you say to a point, but again, these people live a very different lifestyle and things that might pass in the 'west' easily might be very difficult to pass in that region.

I'm hoping for the best, but I do have doubts....

Rox,
That's a very interesting post....

[spanno]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Mar 28 2003, 11:41 AM
do we wanna bring Democracy to the region?????

yer what if they vote saddam back in!

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by spanno+Mar 28 2003, 12:49 PM-->