Thoughts on the War. Day 6.

Almighty Colin · 03-25-2003

Thoughts on the War. Day 6.

Do Iraqis want to be "liberated"? Expecting 100% of a population to react in a certain way would be simple-minded. Many Iraqi's feelings will be mixed. It will probably be true that there will be some celebrations of the end of Saddam's regime, maybe even some massive celebrations. This could certainly be expected given the history of such things. People do not like to live under totalitarian regimes.

Just like many of us are proud of our cultures and identities, Arabs are too. Probably more so on average. They are a great people with a great history. Most of them like THEIR culture, not western culture. I would guess that most non-Iraqi Arabs would much rather see an Arab nation defeat a western coalition than to see the Iraqi people freed from tyranny. It makes sense that many Iraqis themselves would like to see their soldiers perform well and inflict many casualties
on coalition forces even if they do want the end result to be the end of Saddam. Many people are proud of their nations and their militaries. Bloodying the coalition AND ending life under Saddam are not necessarily mutually exclusive propositions to someone living in Baghdad.

Iraqi citizens are hearing about the "difficulties" the coalition is having in asserting absolute control over small towns in Southern Iraq. Certainly, most must feel that any public celebration they wish to engage in would be premature at this point.

This is a war. People are dying. Many, many Iraqi soldiers are dying and they have families back home that will have broken hearts and have their lives ripped apart. Republican Guards have families too. Some will blame the US. Some will blame Saddam. Some will blame both. Some will blame neither.

Certainly many Iraqi citizens will view the coalition as liberators - especially the Kurds. I saw this week one Kurdish family has named their boys "George Bush" and "Dick Cheney". Certainly the repressed Shiite majority and SOME of the Sunnis will. I don't think this will last long. If history is any indication, very quickly the Iraqi people will no longer view the coalition partners in this way. Polls conducted just a year ago showed even Kuwaiti citizens as having a negative view of the US and that is just a decade after a much clearer case of "liberation". Most Iraqis will assimilate, one might even say maintain, their Arab/Muslim values which at it's core at present is anti-Israel, anti-West, anti-US.

When this happens, I will not view Iraqis as "ungrateful". I will them as human and acting in
the most expected way. People don't want to kiss your ass for 50 years just because you
"saved them".

All of this in context. The coalition's goal is to disarm and dismantle Saddam's regime and will do that for our own reasons. That is the measure of success or failure. I think we'll see the celebrations later. We'll probably see them burning our flags in a year.

Last edited by Colin at Mar 25 2003, 08:17 AM

03-25-2003

My father, who is retired, is spending most of his time watching the news this week.

I don't recall where he said he heard it, but he heard a quote purportedly from Sadam before the war that stated that he only "needs to have" about 2 million people to keep his country afloat and there are 20 million people in Iraq, so he would win any war.

I am in favor of taking Sadam out, but that is scary. He's more than willing to see 18 million of his people die so that he can stay in power. I guess we're going to see a lot more human shields before this is over.

Also, the imaginary red line around Baghdad...after ground forces cross it, they're going to be hit with chemical weapons.

The false surrenders, display of POW's on TV, putting civilians out in front of military advances, all broad violations of international rules of war. I'm afraid that Sadam has made "rules of war" obsolete. So now what? Are we going to have to shoot people with white flags in order to protect our own forces? Sadam is betting on our military leaders' sense of honor and it just might work. This war is going to take a heavy toll on the Coalition forces, it's not going to be as easy as most assumed at first.

I'm just wondering if our government is willing to sacrifice enough men and be forced to kill as many Iraqi civilians as it appears are going to be necessary in order to win this.

I'm afraid that this wasn't very well thought out. I prefer to support the US in its endeavors, but the recent developments have me very, very worried that we could have gotten ourselves into a war that even if we win, we lose.

Rox · 03-25-2003

Quote:

we could have gotten ourselves into a war that even if we win, we lose.

On a human level, I feel that way about ALL wars. This one is especially fucked up for all the reasons you posted, and IMO we shouldn't EVER trust Arabs to engage in "clean" fighting. They're a culture with thousands of years of tribal warfare behind them, and on the whole they seem to LIKE the way that's worked for them thusfar.

Peace in the Middle East is laughable to me. Never gonna happen, either with our help or without. But I suppose we'll settle for whatever state of affairs allows us to keep making money off 'em and consider it "peace."

Almighty Colin · 03-25-2003

Heather,

The biggest surprises to me about this war so far are:

1. The speed of the coalition advance to the Baghdad area (historically amazing)
2. The light number of coalition casualties
3. The attempt to preserve the Iraqi infrastructure
4. The inability of Iraq to shoot down planes

I have had to adjust my perceptions to the positive side. It has been MUCH BETTER planned than I hoped for. Saddam isn't really doing anything differently this time than last - POWs on TV, etc. we've all seen before. I don't see a single thing has happened that indicates an error in planning or a misjudgement.

Though it's quite possible the war could be over much quicker, it should surprise no one if it lasted another month or even more.

I agree with Rox that peace in the middle east is laughable.

Almighty Colin · 03-25-2003

I don't Central Command will be surprised if Saddam used chemical weapons. That's why we are there.

RawAlex · 03-25-2003

Heather, I hate to say it, but "rules of war" is a term that makes my skin crawl.

The only reason there are war rules is because people can agree on things. Saddam can't agree, so why assume he would play by any rules? He is doing what any tyrant would do, he is using every advantage, every trick, and every nuance to try to slow down the advance. it sucks because it means innocent people will be killed - and just as importantly, soldiers dressed as civilians will be killed and people will think the US killed civilians!

Bahgdad has most of it's anti-aircraft guns set up on the rooftops of apartment buildings... because they know that the US is going to try to play by the "rules of war"...

That by itself tells all the story.

Alex

Almighty Colin · 03-25-2003

Shit, Alex and I agree.

h34r:

Vick · 03-25-2003

The earth is shaking as Alex and I agree

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/24/sprj.irq....agon/index.html
There are no "rules of war" we struck first, we can not cry foul when the enemy resorts to whatever means to fight back

This just strengthens our resolve to conclude this war as quickly as possible

Last edited by Vick at Mar 25 2003, 11:31 AM

03-25-2003	#1
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	Thoughts on the War. Day 6. Do Iraqis want to be "liberated"? Expecting 100% of a population to react in a certain way would be simple-minded. Many Iraqi's feelings will be mixed. It will probably be true that there will be some celebrations of the end of Saddam's regime, maybe even some massive celebrations. This could certainly be expected given the history of such things. People do not like to live under totalitarian regimes. Just like many of us are proud of our cultures and identities, Arabs are too. Probably more so on average. They are a great people with a great history. Most of them like THEIR culture, not western culture. I would guess that most non-Iraqi Arabs would much rather see an Arab nation defeat a western coalition than to see the Iraqi people freed from tyranny. It makes sense that many Iraqis themselves would like to see their soldiers perform well and inflict many casualties on coalition forces even if they do want the end result to be the end of Saddam. Many people are proud of their nations and their militaries. Bloodying the coalition AND ending life under Saddam are not necessarily mutually exclusive propositions to someone living in Baghdad. Iraqi citizens are hearing about the "difficulties" the coalition is having in asserting absolute control over small towns in Southern Iraq. Certainly, most must feel that any public celebration they wish to engage in would be premature at this point. This is a war. People are dying. Many, many Iraqi soldiers are dying and they have families back home that will have broken hearts and have their lives ripped apart. Republican Guards have families too. Some will blame the US. Some will blame Saddam. Some will blame both. Some will blame neither. Certainly many Iraqi citizens will view the coalition as liberators - especially the Kurds. I saw this week one Kurdish family has named their boys "George Bush" and "Dick Cheney". Certainly the repressed Shiite majority and SOME of the Sunnis will. I don't think this will last long. If history is any indication, very quickly the Iraqi people will no longer view the coalition partners in this way. Polls conducted just a year ago showed even Kuwaiti citizens as having a negative view of the US and that is just a decade after a much clearer case of "liberation". Most Iraqis will assimilate, one might even say maintain, their Arab/Muslim values which at it's core at present is anti-Israel, anti-West, anti-US. When this happens, I will not view Iraqis as "ungrateful". I will them as human and acting in the most expected way. People don't want to kiss your ass for 50 years just because you "saved them". All of this in context. The coalition's goal is to disarm and dismantle Saddam's regime and will do that for our own reasons. That is the measure of success or failure. I think we'll see the celebrations later. We'll probably see them burning our flags in a year. Last edited by Colin at Mar 25 2003, 08:17 AM __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

03-25-2003	#4
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	Heather, The biggest surprises to me about this war so far are: 1. The speed of the coalition advance to the Baghdad area (historically amazing) 2. The light number of coalition casualties 3. The attempt to preserve the Iraqi infrastructure 4. The inability of Iraq to shoot down planes I have had to adjust my perceptions to the positive side. It has been MUCH BETTER planned than I hoped for. Saddam isn't really doing anything differently this time than last - POWs on TV, etc. we've all seen before. I don't see a single thing has happened that indicates an error in planning or a misjudgement. Though it's quite possible the war could be over much quicker, it should surprise no one if it lasted another month or even more. I agree with Rox that peace in the middle east is laughable. __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

03-25-2003	#5
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	I don't Central Command will be surprised if Saddam used chemical weapons. That's why we are there. __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

03-25-2003	#6
RawAlex Members $100 for every ImLive sign-up Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,036	Heather, I hate to say it, but "rules of war" is a term that makes my skin crawl. The only reason there are war rules is because people can agree on things. Saddam can't agree, so why assume he would play by any rules? He is doing what any tyrant would do, he is using every advantage, every trick, and every nuance to try to slow down the advance. it sucks because it means innocent people will be killed - and just as importantly, soldiers dressed as civilians will be killed and people will think the US killed civilians! Bahgdad has most of it's anti-aircraft guns set up on the rooftops of apartment buildings... because they know that the US is going to try to play by the "rules of war"... That by itself tells all the story. Alex __________________ Let's go to the edge of disaster Push the pedal and go a little faster Let's slam into a wall at ramming speed Let's go to the edge of a mountain Jump off and lets start countin' Hit the ground and tell me if it bleeds

03-25-2003	#7
Almighty Colin Members Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,059	Shit, Alex and I agree. h34r: __________________ Almighty Content. Your one stop for live content. Secret Friends, LATINA Secret Friends , My Cam Friends

03-25-2003	#2
originalheather Guest Posts: n/a	My father, who is retired, is spending most of his time watching the news this week. I don't recall where he said he heard it, but he heard a quote purportedly from Sadam before the war that stated that he only "needs to have" about 2 million people to keep his country afloat and there are 20 million people in Iraq, so he would win any war. I am in favor of taking Sadam out, but that is scary. He's more than willing to see 18 million of his people die so that he can stay in power. I guess we're going to see a lot more human shields before this is over. Also, the imaginary red line around Baghdad...after ground forces cross it, they're going to be hit with chemical weapons. The false surrenders, display of POW's on TV, putting civilians out in front of military advances, all broad violations of international rules of war. I'm afraid that Sadam has made "rules of war" obsolete. So now what? Are we going to have to shoot people with white flags in order to protect our own forces? Sadam is betting on our military leaders' sense of honor and it just might work. This war is going to take a heavy toll on the Coalition forces, it's not going to be as easy as most assumed at first. I'm just wondering if our government is willing to sacrifice enough men and be forced to kill as many Iraqi civilians as it appears are going to be necessary in order to win this. I'm afraid that this wasn't very well thought out. I prefer to support the US in its endeavors, but the recent developments have me very, very worried that we could have gotten ourselves into a war that even if we win, we lose.

03-25-2003	#8
Vick Celebrating Company's Success with A Beer From Mini Bar Want to see your own Advertising Here! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Little South of Sanity Posts: 6,551	The earth is shaking as Alex and I agree http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/24/sprj.irq....agon/index.html There are no "rules of war" we struck first, we can not cry foul when the enemy resorts to whatever means to fight back This just strengthens our resolve to conclude this war as quickly as possible Last edited by Vick at Mar 25 2003, 11:31 AM __________________ Pssst Click the Button Above I once wanted to be a Gynecologist But I couldn't find an opening