2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by sarettah

As a programmer, when I cannot complete a project for some reason, whether it is my fault for taking on too much or the customers fault for changing specs etc. If I cannot satisfy the customer, then I return any money received and say "sorry, it didn't work out". I take my loss along with the customer.

But that might only be me I guess

That of course is a good policy, but it is not always possible.

Our program used to take about 2 weeks to install, including website design, software configuration, hosting setup, account setup, etc. Our guarantee was that if you did not like the web design, we would make any changes the customer required or even a completely new design for free.

We have returned money to clients in the past, but never to a client who simply changed their mind months later.

It is important to be fair to the client, but fairness to the merchant is also just as important. Personally, I have purchased items in stores that I sometimes never use, or use to their potential. For example I have a 900 watt sound system in my car that I almost never play loudly. I woudn't dream of going back to the car stereo shop and asking for my money back because it hurts my ears.

It is a tricky situation. We try to qualify the customer first and attempt to make sure that they will be a "good fit" for us. We refuse business from some customers that we think will not work out, but sometimes we make mistakes.

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[sarettah]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

It is important to be fair to the client, but fairness to the merchant is also just as important. Personally, I have purchased items in stores that I sometimes never use, or use to their potential. For example I have a 900 watt sound system in my car that I almost never play loudly. I woudn't dream of going back to the car stereo shop and asking for my money back because it hurts my ears.

Yeah, but if, from the word go you were telling them "hey this isn't right, I think it needs to be changed" and instead of fixing they kept just leading you on in some fashion, then you would want your money back, wouldn't you?

I mean, a year after I finish a project and the program is in use and I had not heard a word of complaint then they aren't getting a refund and I would charge them for modifications they want. That is different.

[Mediaguy]

Whatever happened to my "new webmaster" kit thing, dude?

I used to have a whole section (on the site too) that said - YOU WILL NOT MAKE MONEY! and then proceeded to explain. It was sweet.

I still say all that stuff when I first encounter clients.

When we get newbies, I generally have to take them by the hand after a while, and guide them to resources.

Our best newbs take advice, they listen, ask more questions, try, and ask again. They project expenses, budget for traffic, and tough it out. We have some real happy newbs who aren't necessarily making 50k a month, but still are seeing the possibility. They've taken the advice, though.

One of the first things I ask propects is, ok you have the cash and the job to generate the cash - do you have the TIME?

I explain that our system isn't a magical money machine , they can't just turn it on and go to work, come back expecting riches.

They have to have the time to invest as well as the money.

I like the word turnkey, despite industry negative connotations; it means, to me, that the potential investor/developer/webmaster doesn't have to test systems, research integration, shop for all the elements- they're there, before her/him and ready to customize and/or traffic.

[sarettah]

Strictly speaking imho (but I think most of the newbie boards cozy, voltars, netponds newbie section would agree with me) a newbie should not be running a paysite. They are pretty much doomed from the word go.

They do not understand traffic. They should not be buying traffic or having it bought for them (as many turnkey programs do) because this offers no real understanding of how to build traffic.

The best traffic is organic and unless they are work towards building a good base of self generated traffic, eventually they will fail.

Noone, but especially newbs, should host on a turnkey, all in one solution. There should be several degrees of separation between your host, your registrar, your designer, etc etc etc. Having it all in one place seems convenient until something happens.

Unscrupulous owners can hijack traffic, hold sites hostage, hold domains hostage, etc etc. When you do this you are putting control of your living into one basket. It is always better to have control of your own project.

I have had to rescue way too many people from this type of situation.

To sell such a system to newbs is imho just wrong, period.

[softball]

You can buy traffic? How much does it cost and where can I get some?

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Strictly speaking imho (but I think most of the newbie boards cozy, voltars, netponds newbie section would agree with me) a newbie should not be running a paysite. They are pretty much doomed from the word go.

In my experience you are pretty much right.

Originally Posted by sarettah

They do not understand traffic. They should not be buying traffic or having it bought for them (as many turnkey programs do) because this offers no real understanding of how to build traffic.

Our newbs who take traffic advice and can wait the first few months out, understand and come up smelling roses, or petunias (that's a flower I see you as most, sarettah - please, correct me if I'm wrong )

Originally Posted by sarettah

The best traffic is organic and unless they are work towards building a good base of self generated traffic, eventually they will fail.

Yes! People who want to start with a new site pasting/posting t&a banners everywhere instead of basic text links as I suggest for new sites/traffic campaigns will be sorely disappointed.

Originally Posted by sarettah

Noone, but especially newbs, should host on a turnkey, all in one solution. There should be several degrees of separation between your host, your registrar, your designer, etc etc etc. Having it all in one place seems convenient until something happens.

i can unerstand the hesitancy, but really we're just big-ass sweethearts and the only thing that "happens" is lack of communication or non-payment...

Originally Posted by sarettah

Unscrupulous owners can hijack traffic, hold sites hostage, hold domains hostage, etc etc. When you do this you are putting control of your living into one basket. It is always better to have control of your own project.

Right and absolutely. But no matter how many aspects you "control" if you don't pay your hosting bill, you're sunk...

Originally Posted by sarettah

I have had to rescue way too many people from this type of situation.

To sell such a system to newbs is imho just wrong, period.

I agree, and we've turned down people... but mostly we've warned them ahead of time. Like I said, they have to have the time, for example, to exploit the new enterprise.. and they'll tell you they DO have the time... but, they lie sigh sigh ultimately though they're fooling themselves.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

In my experience you are pretty much right.

Then why market it to them.

Newbies: this is your chance to jump into the game with a web-ready online solution; learn the ropes and fatten your bank account with your own site; We'll help!

It is one thing when a newb stumbles on to you and insists on buying it. But it is another when your sales pitch targets newbies (not to imply that you only market to newbies).

[2MuchMark]

Hi Sarettah,

I have to say that I agree with you. I have removed the NEWBIE mention from the front page of our site, and slightly re-phrased the last 2 paragraphs.

And besides, "newbies" do not know that they are "newbies", so having the word "newbie" there really doesn't serve any purpose.

We still won't flat-out refuse "newbies" however. Don't forget that you, me, and everyone else in the 'biz was a newbie at one time. There is nothing wrong with "newbies" and we want their business. Don't forget; some newbies can bring new ideas to any business, so to flat-out refuse them could be a mistake. And besides, its only the Know-it-all and holier-than-thou newbies that we, like everyone else, have a problem with.

Cheers!

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Then why market it to them.

I agree. Targetting them is weird. You don't go to a search engine thinking of yourself as a newbie (or even knowing the word) if that's what you are.

On the other hand newcomers can often help us remove the cobwebs from our blinders and actually make us learn stuff... I'm hoping to get a newb on here soon who is very very business oriented and not your industry veteran type at all. But he has contacts with girls who are serious enough to start a solo site, for example, and regionally is close to a couple big programs whom he has contacted, that ultimately will help him traffic and business wise.

I'm answering questions, nudging the right direction/s, and hopefully this will all produce new relationships and business associations.

What I like is that this newb who has experience in other domains is actually listening and learning and not imposing old school, brick & mortar concepts of which he is knowledgeable, onto the new online arena into which he's dipping his little toe.

I'll keep y'all up to date on this one

Originally Posted by sarettah

It is one thing when a newb stumbles on to you and insists on buying it. But it is another when your sales pitch targets newbies (not to imply that you only market to newbies).

Yeah it's hard to refuse the money even when all your instincts are sounding the red bell to not sell not sell not sell!!

And once they've gotten around all your qualifying hurdles, still don't seem like they'll know how to use the thing, they fall back on the "What's your problem? I have the money, you have the product! Sell it to me!" This is hard to resist (and there have been times when potential clients have basically just been told that we couldn't fit them in our schedule or something).

But this is the first time we've had a pitch to newbies... don't know if it will serve as an experiment or we should just ditch it.

Personally my part is to market to industry and experienced net people; my experience with mom & pop knitting site types has not been the best...