2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

http://www.2much.net/

"Newbies: this is your chance to jump into the game with a web-ready online solution; learn the ropes and fatten your bank account with your own site; We'll help!"


So, what would be the difference between this and selling newbies "turnkey" sites which I am sure you know almost always fail.

Preying on the newbies is bottom feeding stuff, imho of course.


As always in life "Caveat Emptor" will always prevail but I would think that a responsible company would tell newbies "go learn the ropes, learn how to build traffic and then come back".

.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

I disagree. This is just business. It sounds like selling a franchise to me. If not, then its still ok in my books. A smart guy can make make money out of turnkey. Chances are not as good, but it is possible.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

This is the way a responsible adult company markets an advanced product:

(from the contentgod purchase page) http://www.contentgod.com/

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Selling a franchise to somene who has no experience running a business would be irresponsible in my opinion.

Selling a turnkey to someone who knows nothing about adult is irresponsible.

I don't think you would do that, but I could be wrong as I often am.

Remember Judge Reinhold in ruthless people?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Didn't see that movie and you are right. I prolly wouldn't do that. But I am still not that opposed to it. There are much worse things to worry about in this business.
Anyway, its twenty degrees (no idea what that is in F) I got my shorts on and I am hitting the trail and walking up a river, then up a mountain and get a hit of fresh air that hasn't been through a computer cooling fan a few times. CYA

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Hi Sarettah, I agree with you. I hate the word "Turnkey", but at the same time it is an effective marketing word. People like the idea that a complex product loaded with modules, is "complete", "ready to go", and "turnkey". However, I would disagree to call it "preying on newbies".

Any website that any webmaster builds for someone is "turn key". In an adult site, what does it include? Tour pages, galleries, membership areas, billing, user or password management, etc. Is this not turn-key?

Anyway, your post has prompted me to make a change on our front page. It now reads Newbies:


I love the ContentGod.com purchase page and can completely feel the frustration the person who wrote this had. We have something similar on our FAQ page located at http://2much.net/faq.php which reads:


We have not made the official announcement yet, here's a sneak peak. We are about to launch a partnership program whereby 2Much will install our video chat system complete with a basic website. We will then refer customers to webdesginers who want to design custom made pages for them, for whatever fee the designer normally charges.

We will also be referring qualfied customers to traffic gurus, Bloggers, SEO's, Adult industry consultants, etc. We are still putting the finishing touches on the program and should have it ready in a few days.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Hi again,

Correct me if I am wrong, but a "Franchise" is usually a complete kit with a business model, crazy details on costs, etc. Like buying a McDonalds. We don't say the word Franchise because its not. LiveCamNetwork is just a video chat program, and thats it.

You just gave me a good idea though... if we were to begin referring customers to you, would you like to know in advance what level of experience they had (or claim to have anyway)? For example, Newbie... moderate.... expert? And would that level determine your acceptance of their business or not?

Maybe it would be a good idea to ask customers to indicate this somehow...

(ps: GREAT Thread)

m

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Yeah, Drav, who owns content god, is a pretty good friend of mine and that got written after dealing with lots of frustration with people who bought it thinking it was a magic box. He spent lots of time making the installs right and having his support people walking people through it.

However, when they failed, even after all the help, I believe he returned the money and said sorry it didn't work out.

If a company markets to newbies then they have to go all the way and I do mean all the way because, after all they are newbies.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

I didn't call it a franchise, rhetorical did, so pick that bone with him.

I compared it to a turnkey site setup.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Must've been the new employee.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...ustard_Guy.jpg

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

oops! my bad.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

np.

So, when you get a newbie who is in to deep, as a customer, how do you handle it?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

When a newbie refuses to take advice or seek advice from other industry pro's, it becomes a real problem for our customer as well as for us.

We want to be responsible for the operation of our program only, but of course the customers need help to get off the ground, so we end up having to hold their hand most of the time through the baby-steps of business.

We always suggest that newbies start start slow. Explore the forums, talk to others, attend trade shows, etc. Work with reputable traffic companies (I love Wildline and Trafficdude), hire only 1 or 2 chat models to start, and most importantly, to promote the niche that they know, or personally enjoy.

In the past, 2Much "did it all". We provided the software, built the website, did some SEO, Consulted, etc etc. I came to realize very recently that it is not only too much for 1 company to offer, but it also may limit our customer's interest in looking elsewhere for help with their business. This is why we are rolling out our new partner program in the next few days.

Regardless of the industry, anyone providing consulting, services, products, etc deserves to be paid for it. Providers can only try to assist customers in using their products to its full potential, but cannot be responsible when they do not. When a customer refuses to listen or to do things properly, there is little that anyone can do.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

I actually wasn't trying to go there. So, don't take it there please.

Your latter paragraphs are more what I was looking for, so if you would, please spell it out for me. What would your policy be is you had a newbie, clearly way in over their head, as a customer??

Thanx in advance

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

As a programmer, when I cannot complete a project for some reason, whether it is my fault for taking on too much or the customers fault for changing specs etc. If I cannot satisfy the customer, then I return any money received and say "sorry, it didn't work out". I take my loss along with the customer.

But that might only be me I guess :huh:

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

You're right. I removed those paragraphs from my post before I ran out of time. (It's hard to stay on-topic here sometimes...!)

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

That of course is a good policy, but it is not always possible.

Our program used to take about 2 weeks to install, including website design, software configuration, hosting setup, account setup, etc. Our guarantee was that if you did not like the web design, we would make any changes the customer required or even a completely new design for free.

We have returned money to clients in the past, but never to a client who simply changed their mind months later.

It is important to be fair to the client, but fairness to the merchant is also just as important. Personally, I have purchased items in stores that I sometimes never use, or use to their potential. For example I have a 900 watt sound system in my car that I almost never play loudly. I woudn't dream of going back to the car stereo shop and asking for my money back because it hurts my ears.

It is a tricky situation. We try to qualify the customer first and attempt to make sure that they will be a "good fit" for us. We refuse business from some customers that we think will not work out, but sometimes we make mistakes.

m

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Yeah, but if, from the word go you were telling them "hey this isn't right, I think it needs to be changed" and instead of fixing they kept just leading you on in some fashion, then you would want your money back, wouldn't you?

I mean, a year after I finish a project and the program is in use and I had not heard a word of complaint then they aren't getting a refund and I would charge them for modifications they want. That is different.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Whatever happened to my "new webmaster" kit thing, dude?

I used to have a whole section (on the site too) that said - YOU WILL NOT MAKE MONEY! and then proceeded to explain. It was sweet.

I still say all that stuff when I first encounter clients.

When we get newbies, I generally have to take them by the hand after a while, and guide them to resources.

Our best newbs take advice, they listen, ask more questions, try, and ask again. They project expenses, budget for traffic, and tough it out. We have some real happy newbs who aren't necessarily making 50k a month, but still are seeing the possibility. They've taken the advice, though.

One of the first things I ask propects is, ok you have the cash and the job to generate the cash - do you have the TIME?

I explain that our system isn't a magical money machine , they can't just turn it on and go to work, come back expecting riches.

They have to have the time to invest as well as the money.

I like the word turnkey, despite industry negative connotations; it means, to me, that the potential investor/developer/webmaster doesn't have to test systems, research integration, shop for all the elements- they're there, before her/him and ready to customize and/or traffic.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Strictly speaking imho (but I think most of the newbie boards cozy, voltars, netponds newbie section would agree with me) a newbie should not be running a paysite. They are pretty much doomed from the word go.

They do not understand traffic. They should not be buying traffic or having it bought for them (as many turnkey programs do) because this offers no real understanding of how to build traffic.

The best traffic is organic and unless they are work towards building a good base of self generated traffic, eventually they will fail.

Noone, but especially newbs, should host on a turnkey, all in one solution. There should be several degrees of separation between your host, your registrar, your designer, etc etc etc. Having it all in one place seems convenient until something happens.

Unscrupulous owners can hijack traffic, hold sites hostage, hold domains hostage, etc etc. When you do this you are putting control of your living into one basket. It is always better to have control of your own project.

I have had to rescue way too many people from this type of situation.

To sell such a system to newbs is imho just wrong, period.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

You can buy traffic? How much does it cost and where can I get some?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

In my experience you are pretty much right.

Our newbs who take traffic advice and can wait the first few months out, understand and come up smelling roses, or petunias (that's a flower I see you as most, sarettah - please, correct me if I'm wrong :) )

Yes! People who want to start with a new site pasting/posting t&a banners everywhere instead of basic text links as I suggest for new sites/traffic campaigns will be sorely disappointed.

i can unerstand the hesitancy, but really we're just big-ass sweethearts and the only thing that "happens" is lack of communication or non-payment...

Right and absolutely. But no matter how many aspects you "control" if you don't pay your hosting bill, you're sunk...

I agree, and we've turned down people... but mostly we've warned them ahead of time. Like I said, they have to have the time, for example, to exploit the new enterprise.. and they'll tell you they DO have the time... but, they lie sigh sigh :( ultimately though they're fooling themselves.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Then why market it to them.


It is one thing when a newb stumbles on to you and insists on buying it. But it is another when your sales pitch targets newbies (not to imply that you only market to newbies).

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Hi Sarettah,

I have to say that I agree with you. I have removed the NEWBIE mention from the front page of our site, and slightly re-phrased the last 2 paragraphs.

And besides, "newbies" do not know that they are "newbies", so having the word "newbie" there really doesn't serve any purpose.

We still won't flat-out refuse "newbies" however. Don't forget that you, me, and everyone else in the 'biz was a newbie at one time. There is nothing wrong with "newbies" and we want their business. Don't forget; some newbies can bring new ideas to any business, so to flat-out refuse them could be a mistake. And besides, its only the Know-it-all and holier-than-thou newbies that we, like everyone else, have a problem with.

Cheers!

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

I agree. Targetting them is weird. You don't go to a search engine thinking of yourself as a newbie (or even knowing the word) if that's what you are.

On the other hand newcomers can often help us remove the cobwebs from our blinders and actually make us learn stuff... I'm hoping to get a newb on here soon who is very very business oriented and not your industry veteran type at all. But he has contacts with girls who are serious enough to start a solo site, for example, and regionally is close to a couple big programs whom he has contacted, that ultimately will help him traffic and business wise.

I'm answering questions, nudging the right direction/s, and hopefully this will all produce new relationships and business associations.

What I like is that this newb who has experience in other domains is actually listening and learning and not imposing old school, brick & mortar concepts of which he is knowledgeable, onto the new online arena into which he's dipping his little toe.

I'll keep y'all up to date on this one :)

Yeah it's hard to refuse the money even when all your instincts are sounding the red bell to not sell not sell not sell!!

And once they've gotten around all your qualifying hurdles, still don't seem like they'll know how to use the thing, they fall back on the "What's your problem? I have the money, you have the product! Sell it to me!" This is hard to resist (and there have been times when potential clients have basically just been told that we couldn't fit them in our schedule or something).

But this is the first time we've had a pitch to newbies... don't know if it will serve as an experiment or we should just ditch it.

Personally my part is to market to industry and experienced net people; my experience with mom & pop knitting site types has not been the best...

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Why, whatever do you mean?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

remember that knitting group that had a geocites site and wanted to branch out into adult? and they were mailing cheques to us every other week? and we weren't cashing them? and they sent us a threatening macrame? so we said ok and created a site for sexy knitters? and the sexy kittens niche didn't respond, for some reason? and the animal protection group got involved? and they decided to have the firemen in their locality involved since there were no fires in their city and they had lots of time on their hands heheh? and the firemen didn't know how to knit but ordered a crate of tanning oil? and they all got sick when they tried to masturbate with it?

it was a sad time because a parishioner's shed caught fire and burned to the ground.

the fire department had to go to special counseling sessions to stop the numbness in their hands.

remember?

.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

So you changed it to "anyone" which instead of raising the bar actually lowers it.


For some reason I am reminded of my highschool days.

During my junior and senior years I worked as a lifeguard for a local health spa/gym.

The day I quit was when I watched the head salesman try to sell a membership to a retarded quadrapalegic who happened to be passing by the front of the place (we were in a strip mall).

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

We draw the line at retarded quadrepalegics, please...

And like I said this is something we're trying... though I saw it's been changed... it's the weekend, so I can't just stomp over to Mark's desk and be incendiary. i'll see how this thing is on Monday....

And if we have any nebie prosect maybe I'll just send them to this thread...

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

lolol. The quadrapalegic may have been somewhat harsh. ;p

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

While I thank you for the input, pasting a warning on our front page similar to the "This is not a magic wand" post discussed earlier would not be the best sales technique in my opinon. The FAQ page located at http://www.2much.net/faq.php already covers this.

Besides, Most people who are already in adult, are already doing their own thing and not necessily interested in expanding into online chat. So to attempt to target Only "Experienced Adult Webmasters" might severely limit our ability to sell, and may even tend to block out "new" blood and ideas.

And don't forget, we are not limiting the use of our application to the adult arena.

Changes to the new http://www.2Much.net site will no doubt continue to be tweaked based on opinions offered by others, and our own product and service updates.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Just so you know why I started this thread.

I am asked somewhat often, as a programmer, how much would it be to do a custom cam solution. Depending on what was being asked for, my quotes have been anywhere from $10k to several years and several hundred thousand.

I usually suggest that they go seek out a product that they can license. In the past I have often told them to talk to DrGuile or Colin to see what they can offer or point them towards sponsors that I know of that offer simpler private label solutions that might work.

Because of the threads about 2much and the Shellee/2much thing and the Couchsitter/2much thing I became aware of 2much.

So, I was checking their site to see what their product actually was which means I am mainly looking at marketing text and what specs the site offers up upfront.

I saw the newbie pitch on the front page and decided to ask about it (call you out on it is a bit strong when all I said was naughty naughty...lol). I contacted Shellee and asked her to please ignore the thread so that it would not do what most threads about 2much do (and this is caused by both sides Mark/Mediaguy and Shellee) and deteriorate into a rehash of that stuff.

Thank you Shellee for staying out. Thank you Mark and Mediaguy for resisting the temptation to take it in that direction (it only took one mention from me, I appreciate that).

So, I got my answers. Thank you.

I am still considering whether I will point any future inquiries your way.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Hi again,

Thank you for considering our platform! :yowsa:

If you like, we can setup a demonstration of each of the various components of the system to show you how it all works.

Then, If you like what you see and would like to refer a customer our way, we could then setup a system for them completely free of charge to do a "real" test for say, 30 days or so.

This way you will discover what all of the strengths of the LiveCamNetwork system are. Your customer will then know if its worth buying or not, and you will know if you want to referr additional customers our way or not.

Let me know what you think.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Technical stuff would come after I reached a conclusion about the type of people running it.

I am not sending anyone to people I don't trust, so I am just trying to sort through all the info at this point to see which category you guys fall into as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, somewhat often is not a real big number. I would say that last year I had 20 or so inquiries about cam solution or webcam related scripts and such. Of those, one would have been a huge project. a couple or three of medium projects and the rest were small or could have been solved by sending traffic to existing programs or opening an ifriends account ;P

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

In that case, let us earn your trust. Our contact info is at the bottom of this post. Contact us anytime to arrange a demo, or send us any questions you have (or post them here if you prefer) and we will reply as quickly as possible.

Have a good Sunday!

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

We're also about to come out with a simple purchase platform that will allow links to our software purchase on an affiliate basis!

Give us a call after 11:00 AM EST Monday, sarretah! I'm looking forward to meeting you!

(yes it has something to do with your no-bullshit 'tude and your objective stance on this board, among other things - plus, are you married? :P )

Talk to you later!

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Greg,

Wow hitting on a guy openly on Oprano... that is brave!

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Dont be mean ... there is someone for everyone.

Sadly I dont think Russ is the one.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Damn, you told him.

I was planning on cruising up to Montreal and having mad French Canadian Man Sex.


You take away all my fun :(

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

btw. I am sarettah and I approved this post :okthumb:

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

No, I am Sarettah and you can't approve this post.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

ShelleeHale weren't you asked to keep out of this thread?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

I told her it was ok. In fact I pointed it out to her.

I am just tired of explaining that I am a guy.

That is why I put the I am sarettah and I approved this thread so I could avoid you going on the attack on the issue of posting in the thread.

So, can that be the end of that?

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Ended.

Re: 2MuchMark... Naughty Naughty
 

Guy or gurl, gay or uhhappy, what matter? My joke is even funnier!

Anyhow, gimme a call and forget about the long distance romance potential, it'll never work anyhow.


About Shellee - i don't care about her posting in any thread as long as it doesn't always go back to you-know-what...