Theres one thread here talking about ratios and it seems to have gone in the direction of the 'shave' towards the end. and on all the other boards you hear webmasters ranting about the 'shave' and other webmasters telling them "Hey thats the way it is -- get over it!"

What I want to know that if this 'shave' is always there what level of razor burn would you take before moving sponsor?










thanks go out to Rikk for the Razor burn comment I laughed when I read it :)

Oh god no!!!!! Now you've given me something else to try and work out..........


If I can ever work out my shave % :(

When I signup with a sponser and my ratio is 1/300 - 1/600 for a few days steady then goes to over 1/1000 I know the new treatment is over and they took the guard of the razor.

What I do now is send till my ratio goes fucked up then signup again and send under that new user :)

Aint it a pain in the ass to change out all your links, even with an ad program you still got to change out all your links

Aint it a pain in the ass to change out all your links, even with an ad program you still got to change out all your links [/b][/quote]
virtual includes baby :okthumb:

virtual includes baby :okthumb: [/b][/quote]
What he said lol :lol:

virtual includes baby :okthumb: [/b][/quote]
huh :huh:


Any chances of a few pointers over here :)

a virtual include is a single line of code that calls up a text file. That text file can contain all the html you need for a banner/text ad or a straight text ad.

The text file can be used on one site or across a whole range of sites - it can be one the one domain or across all your domains.

It's really convenient if you want to change the ad because instead of going through every single site to change it over and over all you do is change that one text file.

Its already been done in this thread but : Yeah what he said :)


virtual includes are excellent for other things as well :ph34r:

there are several ways to go here
1. get bitchy and start with a new account (and give sponsor an excuse to really shave you or drop you)
2. just play with your other good performing sponsors untill you start going back to good ratios with offending sponsor (yes they turn of the shave when they don´t see traffic)
3. just say fuck it and send traffic and get paid (not recommended cause traffic is traffic)

but before you do any or all the above make sure it is not you fucking up.

this is like the bible man read it interpret it and if God doesn´t get pissed off keep doing it.

Its already been done in this thread but : Yeah what he said :)


virtual includes are excellent for other things as well :ph34r: [/b][/quote]
Oh you didn't just throw out a teaser there and walk away did you :angry:



:)

Finding out about virtual includes and learning how to do it is as simple as typing "virtual includes" - complete with quotation marks into Google. :headwall: :headwall:

Excellent :okthumb:

Always remember that it's your traffic, if you don't like what a sponsor is doing with it, change the sponsor!

If you go the :ph34r: way sponsors will start with the shave on max like Inabon said then kick you for good...

So fuck theres loads of programs I hear you say... don’t get branded as a bad affiliate while your having your ass shaved unless its your kink!

Do the best you can with your traffic, but don't play stupid games with your business!

:)

I believe the horse has been brought to the water... now we must wait and see if it needs to be forced to drink :lol:

I believe the horse has been brought to the water... now we must wait and see if it needs to be forced to drink :lol: [/b][/quote]
You've got a typo there Trev - let me correct it for you

"now we must wait and see if it needs to be forced to think"

You've got a typo there Trev - let me correct it for you

"now we must wait and see if it needs to be forced to think" [/b][/quote]
:okthumb:

Hell I'm always hitting the wrong keys :)

Thanks for all those little nuggets guys :okthumb:


:wnw: :wnw:

:okthumb:

Hell I'm always hitting the wrong keys :) [/b][/quote]
You probably just have booze on the brain :)

You probably just have booze on the brain :) [/b][/quote]
No it's actually in the hand, hense the typos :)

Ok guys I get it lol <_<
I feel like a welsh guy right bout now :(

Runner - you're ok - sometimes those of us who have been around for a few years tend to reach the point occasionally where just about any newbie question will set us off and it was just your luck to catch me right at that point.

All of us were and still are newbies - we're all still learning - and some of us never forget the help we got when we first started but it gets very frustrating for us because in the last few years the type of person coming into this industry has changed incredibly.

When Marie and I first arrived on a newbie board we were all there to learn as well as do our own testing and research but these days - and I'm not saying you're one of them - there are too many newbies who really do want the more experienced people to do everything for them.

About 18 months ago Marie and I were helping one guy who couldn't even understand the basics of how to FTP to his space on the host's server. We even phoned him in the US from where we were in Australia and walked him through it step by step. We spent hours on ICQ and the phone and as always asked nothing in return.

(Now sometimes people don't explain things very clearly so you might be forgiven for thinking that we were rather vague in our explanations but let tell you that I have lectured in Instructional Technique - I've worked in several positions were being a Trainer was an important component in that position - so I know how to explain things clearly and logically.)

Anyway, I digress - in the end we just couldn't get the simple message across to him and we finally told him that we just couldn't help him anymore. His response was a blatant attempt at blackmail and he told us that if we didn't go on helping him he would go to the board we were on at the time and tell them that we had tried to rip him off.

In this industry reputation counts for a lot but I won't bend the knee to any lowlife scum like that so we just laughed at him.

So there is one reason why Marie and I are a little jaded these days when it comes to newbies. We will always offer help and advice but God helps those who help themselves and so do we. :)

Shaving is much more sophisticated then that....

Big swings in conversions like that are normaly do to with problems with processors.

Steve thank you for your response :)

I know this biz is full of give me everything now people and I dont want to come off as one of them, no sir :)

But I've scratched around just a little thanks to you and Trev and it's really opened a whole world of things in respects to site management :ph34r: :)

Thanks again guys, you :rokk:

Shaving is much more sophisticated then that....

Big swings in conversions like that are normaly do to with problems with processors. [/b][/quote]
And we have a second!

Would you like to clarify or is the code unspoken?

And we have a second!

Would you like to clarify or is the code unspoken? [/b][/quote]
Theres a whole other board for people like you!

And we have a second!

Would you like to clarify or is the code unspoken? [/b][/quote]


Most programs use 3rd party processors. If you can get access to the processing records you would be shocked how many transactions are rejected. The scrub plays a large part in that. However, the downtime and problems that processors have are TOO FREQUENT, and never really publicized.

CCBill is always having problems, and denying them, and then eventually coming back and finally admiting they had problems. Of course they batch everyhing! haha

Numbers do not lie. Any webmaster worth their salt knows then the processors are having problems.....

WOW!!!

I just want to say THANK YOU! to all you guys, because this might look to you as pissant fluff but it's all massive to me :)




:okthumb:

No problems :)

But you'll find some give more than others and some as with Pro will just drop something and move on.

But anything from MikeAI is good :okthumb:


:)

Well I wouldn't quite go THAT far - but there is no doubt that what he said about processors is an absolute :pearl:

I could not agree more. Yes we are glad to help but you have to do your part too. I think everyone will agree that being able to get a $50.00 from a sponsor takes a lot of reading and learning. Internet is the best thing invented you can find anything you want on it. You only have to try and try again.

hell if you get good looking for shit you will be good getting people to find your shit.

:)

newbies are good we all need newbies we were and are newbies all of our life.

what we don´t need or agree to are fucking lazy asses that only get in your way.

Most programs use 3rd party processors. If you can get access to the processing records you would be shocked how many transactions are rejected. The scrub plays a large part in that. However, the downtime and problems that processors have are TOO FREQUENT, and never really publicized.

CCBill is always having problems, and denying them, and then eventually coming back and finally admiting they had problems. Of course they batch everyhing! haha

Numbers do not lie. Any webmaster worth their salt knows then the processors are having problems..... [/b][/quote]
you have the experience from being on the sponsor side mike, however you were one of the top notch, best known, honest to the bone sponsors... ´

this makes your point very valid if everyone was like you,not kissing ass just being polite at saying you are one of the few and extint as the dodo.

Purecash was a good program. We know you did not do all that crap however I know others have some shaving cream...

but like i said i just stop sending traffic untill they turn off the shave. It has worked for us so far.

Just imho....

as has been said before. They all shave.

What matters is where you are making your money.

Sponsor a is honest john and you send him 100 joins a month at $15.00 per for $1500.00

Sponsor b is shavemaster and you send him what should be 100 joins but ends up at 50 joins per month at $50.00 per or $2500.00

Where you gonna send your traffic ?

:blink:

Depends on what niche you going for...

Hirsute, set the shave at 0%
Average girl next door amateur set the shave at say 50%
Shaved Niche set it at 100%


Niche drive everything :zoinks:

send 200 to honest sponsor you make more money.

send 200 to b sponsor and you will still make 2500 cause he will shave your ass.

Not sure how many times I've said this, but here we go one more time....

Ratios, shave, payout schemes, etc should be irrelevent to your decision of whether to send traffic. Know your own traffic, how much of it you're sending and what it SHOULD do based on historical performance with sponsors of any given genre.

With that knowledge in hand, count the checks, not the clicks or the shave.

If I send 100,000 clicks and 200 signups, but you only credit me for 50,000 and 100 signups and pay me $3500, you'll get more traffic from me *if* that $3500 is more than what other sponsors have paid me for that same traffic regardless of how either was calculated.

Pay me by click, signup, revshare, I dont care. I only count the number in the "amount" field on the check.

send 200 to honest sponsor you make more money.

send 200 to b sponsor and you will still make 2500 cause he will shave your ass. [/b][/quote]
Ah, but that would mean that you detected the shave.

A well executed shave would not be able to be seen. It might be suspected perhaps, but detected...un uh :) For most folks they would see they sent the same amount of traffic but they made 2500 one place and 1500 the other and a well executed shave would still keep them happy happy for a long long time.

Sides, certain effects that look like a shave could actually be a reverse shave after they turn it off.

we cross posted kind of...so, Yeah, what HP said :okthumb:

I was saying all this in 97 on Condom.

I remember talking with KK in 97/98 explaining to her everyone shaved.She didn't need it explained twice.

Nothing changes.

they just hide better now LOL

The only stat that matters is the $$$$.

I sent traffic to Serge ,who the first day sent me a CC of a message he sent to John Cotac saying "John turn up the shave , Nick is making too much money"

I stayed with him for years because the shave , and the taunting may have been the biggest in the business but then so were the checks.

I also got the best education in this business money could buy. :)




How can I shave you?
Let me count the ways........

If you think you aren't being shaved .......... then they should turn it up :)

:pearl:

Words to live by :)

Then when you get found out, turn it back down again for a month or two ;)

:headwall: :headwall: :headwall:

I was looking through my dilbert calendar (yes, I have a fucking dilbert calender...Make fun of it and I'll slap you with my sliderule dammit) and there was one in there where dogbert is outlining his business plan and Ratbert starts gagging.

Dogbert says "When my marketing practices make a rat gag, I know I'm on the right track"


Made me think of you Nick :yowsa: (in a totally loving yet surprisingly Non gay way of course)

I've never been known for my soft sell approach , mate LOL

Depends on what niche you going for...

Hirsute, set the shave at 0%
Average girl next door amateur set the shave at say 50%
Shaved Niche set it at 100%


Niche drive everything :zoinks: [/b][/quote]
:unsure:

S, I seriously thought you were trying to break programs down by niche on who shaves what :biglaugh:


I think its hilarious that this whole thread is based on the premise that all sponsors shave ... you would truly be amazed to find out how many don't. :lol:

no seriously ............

the guys who made the statements about turning traffic off and coming back later so the shave has been turned off ... do you have stats to back this up? can you show exact numbers and detail the times and dates you turned it off and back on again etc?

to assume that an affiliate program owner sits there and looks at every account every day or week and presses some button that says 'no joins? turn shave off' is rediculous. of course backends can be written to automate, but this conspiracy theory is really reaching. i can tell you some very creative ways programs shave, but this is way more complicated than is necessary.

I'm always getting webmasters abusing me with shit like this over the years stating that their conversions have dropped therefore we must be shaving. Once a webmaster accused me of what you are claiming above with the bling ... it turns out the site was mostly bookmarkers and revisiting traffic - they took us down for a while when conversions started to drop (because the ads had been seen over and over) and then put us back up a month later and got a bunch of signups straight away (new eyes, new banners, new joins) ......

the most annoying part was that he immediately made up his mind we were shaving and got himself worked into a state of 'sponsors are bad therefore you are ripping me off' that made him miss an opportunity to learn something about keeping ad content fresh and utilizing bookmarker traffic effectively.

remember what assume stands for ;-)

Most programs use 3rd party processors. If you can get access to the processing records you would be shocked how many transactions are rejected. The scrub plays a large part in that. However, the downtime and problems that processors have are TOO FREQUENT, and never really publicized.

CCBill is always having problems, and denying them, and then eventually coming back and finally admiting they had problems. Of course they batch everyhing! haha

Numbers do not lie. Any webmaster worth their salt knows then the processors are having problems..... [/b][/quote]
Thanks for the info Mike, it nice to hear things from someone with knowledge on processing problems :)

Wow this turned out to be a real eye opener of a thread for me, lots of different views and opinions :o

Thanks everyone for your input it really has clouded the water for me a little but I'm sure that when it clears I'll get it :)

Even with all of the other factors that people have produced no one has denied that there is a shave going on :huh:

exactly i think thats what i mean with numbers. if it doesnt sound like that well i agree with you on this.

:unsure:

S, I seriously thought you were trying to break programs down by niche on who shaves what :biglaugh:


I think its hilarious that this whole thread is based on the premise that all sponsors shave ... you would truly be amazed to find out how many don't. :lol:

no seriously ............

the guys who made the statements about turning traffic off and coming back later so the shave has been turned off ... do you have stats to back this up? can you show exact numbers and detail the times and dates you turned it off and back on again etc?

to assume that an affiliate program owner sits there and looks at every account every day or week and presses some button that says 'no joins? turn shave off' is rediculous. of course backends can be written to automate, but this conspiracy theory is really reaching. i can tell you some very creative ways programs shave, but this is way more complicated than is necessary.

I'm always getting webmasters abusing me with shit like this over the years stating that their conversions have dropped therefore we must be shaving. Once a webmaster accused me of what you are claiming above with the bling ... it turns out the site was mostly bookmarkers and revisiting traffic - they took us down for a while when conversions started to drop (because the ads had been seen over and over) and then put us back up a month later and got a bunch of signups straight away (new eyes, new banners, new joins) ......

the most annoying part was that he immediately made up his mind we were shaving and got himself worked into a state of 'sponsors are bad therefore you are ripping me off' that made him miss an opportunity to learn something about keeping ad content fresh and utilizing bookmarker traffic effectively.

remember what assume stands for ;-) [/b][/quote]
ok here we go Igor now going to whip out the techie book.
any big program out there when i say big i mean big enough to have inhouse programmers crunching code can have stats on the fly. systems can be programed so that every minute you can have who is doing whatever amount of singups per minute (if you want to go that close) and raise flags and let you tweak whatever you want with a couple of clicks


with that said anyone that can not do that
1. is not a big sponsor
2. doesn´t have programming power
3. is depending on 3rd parties too much

as far as stats goes. all i have to do is compare whatever traffic i send to whatever traffic they report and trust me there are always differences. thats when you see 1rst page 2nd page and 3rd page click counting etc etc.

my point is you can not be naive about this. and yes traffic can be monitored and signups can be monitored.

I agree with nick on this. who the fuck cares if they shave as long as i get a big paycheck. the problem is when you got a big paycheck 1 period and next period you don´t with the same amount of traffic.


I have 2 things to say.

sponsors if you shave good for you that means you are big enough to shave but keep the people you shave by giving good money to them not cutting their income.

affiliates make sure you do your homework and just play with your traffic and whenever you get a sponsor that says no we don´t shave but you thin they do don´t send them traffic period they either suck or their site got stale. NOTE: DO THIS ONLY IF YOU ARE SURE YOU ARE NOT THE ONE FUCKING UP LIKE I SAID BEFORE

Theres some excellent points and advice in this here thread :wnw:

ok. please continue as I'm sitting with my note pad :agrin:

Ok then I'll stop crying shave everytime my ratios go all to fuck but I will keep pulling my traffic when it does!