Spirituality, Religion, it's all bullshit....

[Nickatilynx]

I've been at a seance that worked...

thing moved without anyone touching it in the end.Then flew in the air.

People lost their minds and a Clergyman came round and ripped into everyone that took part.

[Sin]

Sarettah the problem that I have with that ideology is that if everybody thought that "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" is that things would never get invented.

I'm going to use electricity as an example. There was a time, when people did not know electricity. Does this mean that the potential for electricity to be created, was simply not there? No, it simply meant that it had not yet been discovered. Just because something cannot be scientifically explained at this point & time, does not mean that it won't at some point be able to, nor does it mean that it "doesn't exist"

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Sin

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

My own personal pearl, if nothing else.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Sarettah the problem that I have with that ideology is that if everybody thought that "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" is that things would never get invented.

I'm going to use electricity as an example. There was a time, when people did not know electricity. Does this mean that the potential for electricity to be created, was simply not there? No, it simply meant that it had not yet been discovered. Just because something cannot be scientifically explained at this point & time, does not mean that it won't at some point be able to, nor does it mean that it "doesn't exist"

The possibility is there, people just have to look for it. Those who do, have a better chance of finding it.

You do not need to believe that something is actually there to go look for it. I have never said "What we have is all there is & all we know is all there is" or anything near to it. There is so much we don't know that it dwarfs by many magnitudes what we actually do know.

That we don't know something is not a reason to make up a belief to fill in a gap.

[sarettah]

(The Chink, in conversation with Sissy as to why he chases people away from Siwash Ridge.....)

"Meher Baba, Guru Maharaji, Jesus Christ and all the other holy men who amassed followers in recent times have had one gimmick in common. Each of them demanded unquestioning devotion. "Love me with all your heart and soul and strength and do my bidding without fail". That has been the common requirement. Well, great. If you can love someone with that completeness and that purity, if you can devote yourself totally and unselfishly to someone - and that someone is a benevolent someone - then your life cannot help being the better for it. Your very existence can be transformed by the power of it, and the peace of mind it engenders will persist as long as you persist.

"But it's therapy. Marvelous therapy, wonderful therapy, ingenius therapy, but only therapy. It relieves symptoms, ignores disease. It doesn't answer a single universal question or put a person one step closer to ultimate truth. Sure, it feels good and I'm for anything that feels good. I won't knock it. But let nobody kid himself: spiritual devotion to a popular teacher with an ambiguous dogma is merely a method of making existence more tolerable, not a method of understanding experience or even of accurately describing it.

"In order to tolerate experience, a disciple embraces a master. This sort of reaction is understandable, but it's neither very courageous nor very liberating. The brave and liberating thing to do is to embrace experience and tolerate the master. That way we might at least learn what it is we are experiencing, instead of camouflaging it with love.

"And if your master truly loved you, he would tell you that. In order to escape the bonds of earthly experience, you bind yourself to a master. Bound is bound. If your master relly loved you, he would not demand your devotion. He would set you free - from himself, first of all.

"You think I'm behaving like a cold-hearted ogre because I turn people away. Quite the contrary. I'm merely setting my pilgrims free before they become my disciples. That's the best I can do.

Sissy nodded in appreciation. "That's fine; that sincerely is fine; The only problem is, your pilgrims don't know that."

"Well, it's up to them to figure it out. Otherwise I'd be dishing them the same precooked and packaged pap. Everybody has got to figure out experience for himself. I'm sorry. I realize that most people require externalized objective symbols to hang on to. That's too bad. Because what they are looking for, whether they know it or not, is internalized and subjective. There are no group solutions! Each individual must work it out for themself. There are guides, all right, but even the wisest guides are blind in your section of the burrow. No, all a person can do in this life is to gather about him his integrity, his imagination and his individuality - and with these ever near him, out front and in sharp focus, leap into the dance of experience.

"Be your own Mater!
"Be your own Jesus!
Be your own flying saucer! Rescue yourself.
Be your own valentine! Free the heart!

(Even Cowgirls get the Blues...Tom Robbins)

[TheEnforcer]

Ok, nice find there Lisa!!

Now, that isn't what the bible, or any religious orginization I know of that believes in the bible, teaches as to the requirements to get into heaven. Any time I have seen someone espouse a belief like that it is as someone who doesn't take the requirements from the bible but rather what they think a loving God would do. Someone who is more spirutual about their beliefs on God and not a "follower" of the bible so to speak. So...... Morgan.. if you could please elaborate I would greatly appreciate it...

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Ok, nice find there Lisa!!

Now, that isn't what the bible, or any religious orginization I know of that believes in the bible, teaches as to the requirements to get into heaven. Any time I have seen someone espouse a belief like that it is as someone who doesn't take the requirements from the bible but rather what they think a loving God would do. Someone who is more spirutual about their beliefs on God and not a "follower" of the bible so to speak. So...... Morgan.. if you could please elaborate I would greatly appreciate it...

OK, I believe this is the question you mentioned in the other thread. *sigh* Once again, I have to confess to doing nothing more than harassing sarettah. It wasn't a comment on the Bible, or religion, or anything other than his intensity with his "bullshit" comment that drew a lot of people in.

Oh, for fuck's sake, sarettah...enough already!! My chain is curled up and safely put away and no longer available for the yank session you've got going.

"Thread title is based in fact, not belief"

Yeah, baby, sell those facts...pass that collection plate...sell those bibbles....

*That's* why I spelled it "bibbles." I was teasing sarettah, not making fun of the Bible.

My humor fell flat, as it is oft to do lately.

I, personally, DO NOT believe that the Bible or the requirements of christian behavior espouse the ability to purchase your way into heaven, especially by giving to a church or television program. (What's the "camel, eye of the needle, rich man" quote?) I apologize to anyone who was offended by the mistaken impression I was mocking the Bible. The directives on what God would like from His children contained in the Bible are pretty much the directives contained in everybody's "Big Book."

I still have - and always will have - the Bible given to me as a child. It's a Catholic Bible, and therefore different than the King James Bible used by others...and much different than the flat out silly ones that are supposed to be "easier to understand." (I actually read one where "Ruth went in to make...pancakes... ) It's not my "instructions for life," it's a momento of my childhood.

Did I elaborate sufficiently, TE? If there are more questions, fire away.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

OK, I believe this is the question you mentioned in the other thread. *sigh* Once again, I have to confess to doing nothing more than harassing sarettah. It wasn't a comment on the Bible, or religion, or anything other than his intensity with his "bullshit" comment that drew a lot of people in.



*That's* why I spelled it "bibbles." I was teasing sarettah, not making fun of the Bible.

My humor fell flat, as it is oft to do lately.

I, personally, DO NOT believe that the Bible or the requirements of christian behavior espouse the ability to purchase your way into heaven, especially by giving to a church or television program. (What's the "camel, eye of the needle, rich man" quote?) I apologize to anyone who was offended by the mistaken impression I was mocking the Bible. The directives on what God would like from His children contained in the Bible are pretty much the directives contained in everybody's "Big Book."

I still have - and always will have - the Bible given to me as a child. It's a Catholic Bible, and therefore different than the King James Bible used by others...and much different than the flat out silly ones that are supposed to be "easier to understand." (I actually read one where "Ruth went in to make...pancakes... ) It's not my "instructions for life," it's a momento of my childhood.

Did I elaborate sufficiently, TE? If there are more questions, fire away.

What bible did you have as a child, was it the RSV or the NAB?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Trev

What bible did you have as a child, was it the RSV or the NAB?

OK...I'm looking at the "St. Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version." I can't find either of those letter groupings on it anywhere. It was published in 1963. They were given to us because the monks ran an entire "oops" edition, and the pages that were left out/printed wrong/whatever had to be printed and added, so they gave them all out to Catechism kids.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

OK...I'm looking at the "St. Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version." I can't find either of those letter groupings on it anywhere. It was published in 1963. They were given to us because the monks ran an entire "oops" edition, and the pages that were left out/printed wrong/whatever had to be printed and added, so they gave them all out to Catechism kids.

St. Joseph Textbook Edition, if it was after 1946 then it should be RSV (Revised Standard Version). Though it is available in NAB (New American Bible) now.

[Vick]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Sorry bout that, but it is.

We are no different than anything else in nature.

We are born and we die.

Beginning of it and end of it. Period.

Your gift for the obvious brings a smile to my sensibilities

Well put and well done

[helix]

I feel compelled to share.
I am a frisbeetarian. We frisbeetarian believe that when you die, your soul departs your shell of a body and gets stuck on the roof.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by helix

I feel compelled to share.
I am a frisbeetarian. We frisbeetarian believe that when you die, your soul departs your shell of a body and gets stuck on the roof.

... Unless the Great Dog god catches you in his mouth and takes your body for a romp through the Eternal Park.

[helix]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

... Unless the Great Dog god catches you in his mouth and takes your body for a romp through the Eternal Park.

true, true

[TheEnforcer]

Oh, you aren't going to ever get critisize of offend me by making humor of the bible!! LOL

I was merely commentating on the difference between "church going" believers and spiritual believers. Peoiple that are regular church goers and who subscribe to a particular "brand" of faith take the requirements of the bible as the absolute requirements for entry into heaven. The more extreme of those types do things like push for things like intelligent design to be pushed on your kids. People who are more of the spiriual belief and not regular church goers in nature like, which is what you seem to be, seem to take a more "this is what I believe God would do" appraoch and are much more open minded about those things.

Alas I am somewhat rambling but what I really was asking in a roundabpout way is how you thought, and WHY, that poem answers my criticism of the concept of God and entry into heaven? Because it seems to me that is more a PERSONAL belief on what you think God would do rather than what the bible teaches God does.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Oh, you aren't going to ever get critisize of offend me by making humor of the bible!! LOL

I was merely commentating on the difference between "church going" believers and spiritual believers. Peoiple that are regular church goers and who subscribe to a particular "brand" of faith take the requirements of the bible as the absolute requirements for entry into heaven. The more extreme of those types do things like push for things like intelligent design to be pushed on your kids. People who are more of the spiriual belief and not regular church goers in nature like, which is what you seem to be, seem to take a more "this is what I believe God would do" appraoch and are much more open minded about those things.

Alas I am somewhat rambling but what I really was asking in a roundabpout way is how you thought, and WHY, that poem answers my criticism of the concept of God and entry into heaven? Because it seems to me that is more a PERSONAL belief on what you think God would do rather than what the bible teaches God does.

That poem came to me when I was young. What I liked was reinforcement of my - at the time - belief that any god who'd want people to sit around at his feet worshipping him was kind of a lousy god. A god that wanted people to love other people was a pretty cool god. In the poem, which doesn't mention entry into heaven, it just says that God loves ben Adam best *because* he loves his fellow men.

All of my beliefs about the Goddess/God are personal beliefs. There is no "Wiccan Bible." We keep what is called a "BOS" (Book of Shadows, I have *no* idea why it's called that) that is a compendium of many things: our own beliefs, our own personal rituals, etc. (Heavy on the "etc.") Note: the whole "spell" thing comes from the "Craft," not the religion, and I'm not going there right now.

I mentioned the poem because I love it and I happened to think of it then. I, personally, found it impossible to believe in a "god" that wanted the things that some people have informed me the Bible says God wants. I'm going to have to scroll back after this to read what it was you said that you thought I was "answering." I tossed out more "comments" in this thread than "answers." I don't happen to believe that I have any answers to anything. I have lots of beliefs, and can even explain how they came to be, but as far as answers? Really short on those.

Everybody's religion - I consider the atheist's beliefs a religion, since I never got a good enough definition of the word "religion," I use it as a catch all word that covers just about anything - as their way of making it through life. If my set of beliefs turn out to be totally wrong, in every way, where is the harm? I've had my one and only life in happiness, harmed no one, and turned to dust. Whatever's out there, something or nothing, I doubt seriously it's a big yellow smilie going "neener, neener" because I got it wrong. (However, if a big yellow smilie is currently laughing his ass off because I wrote that, I'll cope with that, too.)

A long time ago I decided what the Goddess wanted from me personally. It's a belief that I'm very comfortable with. Does that mean I know what the Goddess/God/Fred/Whatever wants from you? Nope. It's not my job to know that. I'm in charge of me, and no one else.

How am I doing, TE? Any closer to answering whatever the question was?

[sarettah]

drivel drivel drivel............


Bullshit !











.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by sarettah

drivel drivel drivel............


Bullshit !











.

Can I please start deleting Sarettah's posts... pretty please.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Trev

Can I please start deleting Sarettah's posts... pretty please.

Go right ahead. Get rid of the little bit of intelligence that remains here.

.

[TheEnforcer]

Also, I should make clear I am not talking about purchasing your way into heaven. A man such as Adolph Hitler, I know it's an extreme example, if he truly repented and asked for sincere forgiveness of his sins and embraced God before he died can "earn" his way into heaven but the same thing can't be said for a man who is as good as can be but absolutely refuses to believe in God right up until his last breath of life on this earth.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Also, I should make clear I am not talking about purchasing your way into heaven. A man such as Adolph Hitler, I know it's an extreme example, if he truly repented and asked for sincere forgiveness of his sins and embraced God before he died can "earn" his way into heaven but the same thing can't be said for a man who is as good as can be but absolutely refuses to believe in God right up until his last breath of life on this earth.

Ah.

OK, I think we're on the same page now.

That isn't my belief. I don't believe that believing in a god would be necessary to get into this place called heaven. I can't believe in a god who would place more value on being worshipped than having people live a good life, doing the best they can with the incredible gift that's been given them.

When you give a gift to a child, sometimes the child is so overwhelmed with the gift he doesn't say thank you and sometimes is so absorbed in the gift he's no longer aware you're standing there. As making the child that happy was the desired result in giving the child the gift in the first place, I'm fine with the reaction.

I have a regrettable tendency to lapse into metaphor and analogy.

My concept of "heaven" is very different from the Christian/christian one, too.

[TheEnforcer]

Thanks for the post Morgan. Guess it's hard to answer because you are the type of believer I "get" so to speak. I don't understand "fundies" and such that are strict bible adherists.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Thanks for the post Morgan. Guess it's hard to answer because you are the type of believer I "get" so to speak. I don't understand "fundies" and such that are strict bible adherists.

I can't cope with them, either, sadly. It makes it difficult. I want to scream "stop quoting at me and have an original thought!" Definitely not done when one is visiting for coffee.

[sarettah]

Must be a wonderful way to go through life "I don't like how it really is, so I think I'll make something up to believe". why not ? I mean it doesn't hurt anybody does it ?


Straight out escapism all around me. I can't deal with what IS, so I will create a little playground in my mind and stay there...

la dee da... life is wonderful.......


















It's still bullshit.

[Lisa]

Thanks for the points Morgan. Tho I'm glad it doesn't COST you anything to give them to me. All I did was google what you posted, second search result, there it was!

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Thanks for the points Morgan. Tho I'm glad it doesn't COST you anything to give them to me. All I did was google what you posted, second search result, there it was!

Shhhh! Make her think you worked your ass off for it!

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Thanks for the points Morgan. Tho I'm glad it doesn't COST you anything to give them to me. All I did was google what you posted, second search result, there it was!

It can be set to do that... but if it was no one would get any points... you guys are still too tight to give them away for free.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Trev

It can be set to do that... but if it was no one would get any points... you guys are still too tight to give them away for free.

Yeah, that's right. Call everyone cheap!

Like that won't end up costing you points.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Yeah, that's right. Call everyone cheap!

Like that won't end up costing you points.

It's a good job I've got access to stop that happening.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Trev

It can be set to do that... but if it was no one would get any points... you guys are still too tight to give them away for free.

It does need stating again that points given for a post are NOT deducted from one's own points. They're just freebie points you may lavish at will.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

It does need stating again that points given for a post are NOT deducted from one's own points. They're just freebie points you may lavish at will.

Yes, speaking of religion, Oprano points are the metaphysical realization of the story of "The Loaves and The Fishes".

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Yes, speaking of religion, Oprano points are the metaphysical realization of the story of "The Loaves and The Fishes".

Oh, for fuck's sake....