Homegrown remembers when...

[Far-L]

Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

EJ - I will take your point much more seriously when we actually see a royalty report for that content of ours that just happens to also be used in your animated sig gif - btw... don't remember authorizing that usage but correct me if I am wrong since that deal is from years ago.

Mike South - I have to worry enough about our content and I am not about to take on yet another battle for this industry. You and I both know that we have our own responsibility to police our own marks. When we contact a tube about our unauthorized usage I base my criticism of them for or against on whether they respond to our remove request quickly and whether they accept our offer to work with authorized versions. Are we getting some sort of preferential treatment? I seriously doubt it. When I first sent emails to the "offenders" I was professional and direct and I often was responded to with compliments for being that way instead of coming at them with the typical tirades that many approach the situation with.

One thing I learned years ago "coming online" is not to believe what you see or hear. I remember freaking about password sites until I learned that the majority of those passwords were seeded by the programs themselves as a means of getting traffic. There is a strong possibility that a lot of so-called unauthorized content going up probably is being put up by programs.

Gonzo - I have heard nothing but great things about that service, thanks for throwing that in.

The truth here is that since the beginning of online adult marketing there has been a business model of free to pay conversion. Has it been abused? Yes. Is there a way for it to work? Yes. Is there going to be a perfect condition where no content goes up unauthorized? No. Does that mean that you can't still try to work with the situation? No, not at all, and like everything else in this world you just have to try to make the best of it.

[Toby]

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Originally Posted by Far-L

Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Actually you are the one missing the point and I would have figured that you would not need it spelled out, but since that is not the case I will do my best to make it simple and clear enough for you to understand.

You and I both know that tgp started with stolen content and mgp as well. You also know that both of those changed in due course due to changing trends in the industry - namely, copyright holders policed their content more and the main purveyors of those traffic pumps changed to be compliant with legalities or face litigation... Now if I am not mistaken, you used to use tgp/mgp to get traffic, correct me if I am wrong, but who did you work with if that was or still is the case? Were all of them squeaky clean from day one? I bet not. In fact, none of them still are because the fact remains that despite their best efforts unauthorized content still gets posted time and again. Or maybe you worked with top list trade scripts? Well, all of those were sorely misused and abused so did that make you a crook because you supported that and did your best to use them in an honest fashion? So what does that make everyone that used or continues to use those advertising methods? Crooks? Tell that to every program out there and see what kind of response you get.

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Here is the way I see it Far-L........ Making money stealing other people's hard work (case in point Illegal tubes) is pure and simple theft. Any moron can get hot product and fence it. It makes you a thief. Maybe worse than a crack dealer, who at least pays for his product and if he steals it, runs a high risk of getting shot. If you do business with people who steal from others, you probably think you are at arm's length. I say you are encouraging bad behavior and are consciously involved in theft of other people's hard work.
When I read some of the when we stories on this thread, I kinda shake my head as well. You all seem to look back fondly on some very shady business practices. (some of which were down right illegal). A lot of this stuff is what killed the golden goose. It wasn't smart business at all. Personally, I have never participated in that dishonesty and am not about to start.
I detect a lot of desperation lately in the biz from both big and small companies. And apparently your solution is to dance with the devil. We may have had differences in the past, but I always respected you as a person. But now that the shit has hit the fan, perhaps true character surfaces. I hope I am wrong and you can convince us otherwise. I know I am just a voice in the wilderness.

I don't believe in content theft at all, nor was any of my recollections fond remembrances condoning the behaviours or business practices of those that went down in flames. I love that quote from Sun Tzu that runs something like "happiness is seeing the bodies of your enemies float by in the river". Will some of these companies be the companies of tomorrow that burn up in thier own greed? I hope so and I would actually bet on it.

You use phrases like "dance with the devil" and try to insinuate that I am somehow doing something innapropriate when the actuality is far from that. I work hard to protect our content and I have spent more time and money fighting for the rights of content producers in this industry than most, probably including you. The tubes owners we have worked with have been very proactive making sure that they are only working with legit material. I suppose you have some sort of inside information to the contrary? Share it then, or are you just content to just make accusations based on suppositions of entirely circumstantial evidence? That doesn't seem very ethical to me.

[softball]

So what you are saying is that the content thieves you work with are ok in your book because when they steal something, they give it back right away when asked. So buddy breaks into your house and steals your watch. Oops he gets caught and you say just give it back and thats the end of it. It sounds awfully like the guy that gets busted for speeding and he tells the cop that he was just keeping up with traffic. You lay down with thieves and pretty soon it sounds ethical. But it isn't. It has still fucked online business and you are doing more damage than any good you did fighting that Acacia thing which was a tempest in a teapot from the get go.
So, how does it feel to be one of the bad guys now that you are grown up? Fuck me, I hope I never get that old. Is Hannity on radio pre set?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

So what you are saying is that the content thieves you work with are ok in your book because when they steal something, they give it back right away when asked. So buddy breaks into your house and steals your watch. Oops he gets caught and you say just give it back and thats the end of it. It sounds awfully like the guy that gets busted for speeding and he tells the cop that he was just keeping up with traffic. You lay down with thieves and pretty soon it sounds ethical. But it isn't. It has still fucked online business and you are doing more damage than any good you did fighting that Acacia thing which was a tempest in a teapot from the get go.
So, how does it feel to be one of the bad guys now that you are grown up? Fuck me, I hope I never get that old. Is Hannity on radio pre set?

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Far-L

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.

you may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

Bullshit.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious

.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.


Bullshit.


.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

Leave it to you to start hammering for my late night typos after playing 5 hours of hockey. Get off the sauce, rummy. You aren't adding anything to this discussion other than your bilious nature. If you have nothing to say other than I made a grammatical mistake then you have already revealed that your contribution to this business discussion is just a bunch of bluster to try sounding important and superior.

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie. What did you do? Post in a thread that you would help? So what, so did a hundred other people that never did any more than make that claim to look like they were "behind us". You never contacted us. My phone and email was, is, and will always be easy to find. You never offered money. Maybe you thought you did that during one of your drunken stupors but I assure you that is incorrect.

[softball]

I love that quote from Sun Tzu that runs something like "happiness is seeing the bodies of your enemies float by in the river"

Could have just as easily come from "The Godfather".

[bluemoney]

[Toby]

Originally Posted by bluemoney

Jerry wishes he had that kind of traffic volume.

[EmporerEJ]

Far-L
You mis-understand, my message in response to the mood change was in defense Of YOU.

I thought you posted a perfectly open and friendly thread, and it was quickly turned into something nasty, very quick. And it wasn't warranted.

I was about to say, and will say, I think you can do whatever you want with YOUR content, and any clown that complains about it should confine themselves to any content, they themselves created.

Please contact me via private message with a current direct contact info.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Far-L
You mis-understand, my message in response to the mood change was in defense Of YOU.

I thought you posted a perfectly open and friendly thread, and it was quickly turned into something nasty, very quick. And it wasn't warranted.

I was about to say, and will say, I think you can do whatever you want with YOUR content, and any clown that complains about it should confine themselves to any content, they themselves created.

Please contact me via private message with a current direct contact info.

So I can put you down in the column under "supports content theft" as well.

This is far more complex than just doing what you want with your own content. This is a case of exploiting stolen content (or more precisely the traffic generated by the unauthorized use of that stolen content) for financial gain. Personally, I don't need the money badly enough to crawl in bed with thieves.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Toby

So I can put you down in the column under "supports content theft" as well.

This is far more complex than just doing what you want with your own content. This is a case of exploiting stolen content (or more precisely the traffic generated by the unauthorized use of that stolen content) for financial gain. Personally, I don't need the money badly enough to crawl in bed with thieves.

No, thank you Toby, you can't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your premise. It's exactly like I said. I know FAR-L and the Homegrown people would have nothing to do with theft, and because they may have made a legit deal with someone about their content, doesn't make them "supporting everything else that party may or MAY NOT do." (I honestly don't know the other people, and frankly, don't care to.)
They aren't answerable to you for their content, or how they want to market their product. I haven't checked, but I'll bet it's their name on the electric Bill.

Next, you'll say, because I wrote a few articles for a magazine, I was somehow responsible for an ad for one of the crooked vendors that may have appeared in the same issue with something I wrote?

While the rest of the industry stood around pulling Their collective pud, homegrown stood up against Acacia with their own money. I remember that one, do you? Everyone was hiding under the blankets and hoping Acacia wouldn't notice their website, while these guys went out and Kicked Acacia's ass.
On THEIR dime. (and they're STILL paying.) EVERYONE in ANY kind of streaming business OWES THEM.
The entire streaming video WORLD (not just adult,) benefited from their efforts. And if you can't see that, then man, I feel sorry for you.

And still, the "armchair legal minds" sat around on boards spouting off about how much bullshit it was. But they said it quietly, from under cover.
Not a whole lot of folks sending them checks, or joining the fight.
I for one, am VERY grateful.

If I knew nothing else about the Homegrown folks, that would be enough of a character statement to squelch any thought as to their "intentions."

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

No, thank you Toby, you can't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your premise. It's exactly like I said. I know FAR-L and the Homegrown people would have nothing to do with theft, and because they may have made a legit deal with someone about their content, doesn't make them "supporting everything else that party may or MAY NOT do." (I honestly don't know the other people, and frankly, don't care to.)
They aren't answerable to you for their content, or how they want to market their product. I haven't checked, but I'll bet it's their name on the electric Bill.

Next, you'll say, because I wrote a few articles for a magazine, I was somehow responsible for an ad for one of the crooked vendors that may have appeared in the same issue with something I wrote?

While the rest of the industry stood around pulling Their collective pud, homegrown stood up against Acacia with their own money. I remember that one, do you? Everyone was hiding under the blankets and hoping Acacia wouldn't notice their website, while these guys went out and Kicked Acacia's ass.
On THEIR dime. (and they're STILL paying.) EVERYONE in ANY kind of streaming business OWES THEM.
The entire streaming video WORLD (not just adult,) benefited from their efforts. And if you can't see that, then man, I feel sorry for you.

And still, the "armchair legal minds" sat around on boards spouting off about how much bullshit it was. But they said it quietly, from under cover.
Not a whole lot of folks sending them checks, or joining the fight.
I for one, am VERY grateful.

If I knew nothing else about the Homegrown folks, that would be enough of a character statement to squelch any thought as to their "intentions."

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

Much appreciated, EJ, i apologize for knocking on you previously. You are still good people in my book... no matter what Thrillhammer says about you. ;-)

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Much appreciated, EJ, i apologize for knocking on you previously. You are still good people in my book... no matter what Thrillhammer says about you. ;-)

He's just mad 'cause he's gotta drag that damn heavy chair all over the place......and I looked better on TV.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

I'm not bitter, nor have I changed my views. The only thing that is different is that I am a bit more outspoken.

You're the only one in this thread defending Far-L's position. That in itself speaks volumes.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Toby

I'm not bitter, nor have I changed my views. The only thing that is different is that I am a bit more outspoken.

You're the only one in this thread defending Far-L's position. That in itself speaks volumes.

You've always been outspoken. And usually, level headed. And for years, I've respected your opinion. But in this case, I guess we just disagree. And there is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, I suppose.

You bet I support Far-l. Character counts. And in the last 11 years of the online biz that I've known Far-l, I know he's a standup guy, honest, and very helpful to the industry. As is his brother, and Spike.

And even if I didn't personally KNOW about their character, I would still be on the "content creator/owner's" side on this.
It is, very simply, the golden rule. "he who holds the gold, makes the golden rule."
It's Their product. THEY aren't doing anything wrong, except marketing their product in a way that has somehow tripped the "Toby moral alarm."

I don't know about the tube people, maybe they did what they are accused of. But I don't have an opinion, because they are just a company accused of something.
There is alot of that going around with these tube people...all of them. The big guys too. and with direct interaction.....ie, they own the site(s.) Why aren't you railing against them?

I didn't see one of them on your list.

So, if you want to say my defense of Far-L speaks something?
You bet. I'll take that. With Honor.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what it means, but I'll stand with them.

[RawAlex]

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Crap-

Let's dial this clock back.
This EXACT same scenario started 25 years ago.

From '85-94, I owned a chain of video stores in Central PA. We had an adult room, and that's where the profit was.

And we had new releases, and we had cheap stuff. And even today, ALL the studios sell DVDs for a $1 or less wholesale. It's called a "loss leader."
Sell the cheap stuff for next to nothing, get them in the "store," and sell them something else. Next time you walk in a drug store, explain why they are selling motor oil, and candy?

A (legitimate) tube site is just the same thing. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. But there are some awful; fuzzy licensing deals in this industry, and there is "fair use" in marketing a product. I don't know that any of that explains the current situation, but neither does anyone else. Certainly not another vendor that happens to be on the site, selling their product through the same "store front."

Personally, tube sites don't help, or hurt my business. I can understand why it worries website owners that have been selling someone else's products for years, through a nicely designed website, and making 50+% on others' work, with no value added.

Maybe it's time to take a hard look at the "membership model" websites have been doing for years? You had a great run, but the market is changing.


When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

In your assessment of "free tv" you claim that it wasn't free because you had to pay for the reciever, antenna, etc. and that is essentially "paying for reception" too, right? Well, cable makes you pay a premium for reception AND content. However, also in your example the content providers never profited from which tv or antenna you bought, while cable operators do pay the content providers for subscriptions, even if they are collected as "packages" or "bundles" of content including the channels you named.

I agree that pay per use or view will always be strong, but I also think that a premium can be charged for a quality member experience... as long as membership has its privileges so to speak. I believe it is human nature to strive for elite and privileged experiences, entertainment or otherwise.

C'mon... after sex can be free, right? So why do people pay for it. Even billionaires. Even movie stars. And so on, throughout history.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

I think though you are denying one reality: It isn't your old content that is on tube sites (and / or out on torrents), it is the brand new stuff.

Example, I wrote a blog entry yesterday about content that a sponsor had just added hours before. When I went to check, the content was indexed into Google on tube sites and on torrents, literally within hours of it's release.

Your content isn't any more or any less protected than that. I am sure that you can find content that is only weeks old already widely available for free, in full.

Tube sites that work with illegal or questionably sourced material, who play exceptionally long clips, etc, are not doing you any favors. They aren't giving you promotion, they are giving your valuable product away, and lowering it's market price. Heck, with over exposure, it could even lose it's actual value.

If you were talking about only 4 or 5 year old content, perhaps you might have a point. But fresh content is out there, and you appear to be saying that it isn't important that you support or work with one of the tube sites with the dirtiest hands of all.

http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.ph...key=2076915176

How much porn is being promoted here? NONE. They already know what you are denying, that their customers know that the market value of porn is zero. 81 minute video? No problem, we aren't selling porn, we are selling adult friend finder and bigger penises. There isn't a single porn link out of there. That should tell you everything you need to know. You are not getting promotion, you are getting used. That they happen to use lube instead of dry humping your corporate ass doesn't really change the result, just how much you think it hurts.

[softball]

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie.

Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

lol. Nice try but if that is all you got then you are going to have to try a lot harder.

First, I was friendly with Jeff back in the day but I have neither seen or heard from the guy in many years so you can hardly call that a "friend". You can ask him about his involvement or lack thereof in our defense group. But if you made any sort of deal with Jeff I can assure you that he never brought it to the group, and I can also say that he has been out of the defense group for quite some time. You guys are great at assuming everything so I bet you can fill in your own details as to why.

How is it that you have added one single valuable thing, one small contribution of intelligent discourse, to this thread? Remind me, because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.

Btw... the rummy comment harkens back to the days when I used to have to put up with your self important drivel. You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.

You obviously haven't stopped being a self important bloated bag of wind. With an alias like "rhetorical" doesn't that say it all?

That was a rhetorical question.

[softball]

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

We are all in the same boat if its 1 or 100 that depend on this for a living.

I do agree with creating new markets with products as well but for now I see no innovation.

[softball]

You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.

What the fuck are you talking about? Dude, have you considered anger management. First I was lying about my offer. Now you are not so sure.

because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.

I would say your anger is again getting the better of you. I think if you re read your rhetoric and the conclusions you jumped to, the shoe is clearly on your foot.
I dunno, Far-L you seem to be spinning out of control. Who put the bug up your ass and how come you are losing it so badly?

[softball]

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat

How moronic. Don't those idiots know that doing something like that will do more harm than good? Let the lawsuits run their course.