Spirituality, Religion, it's all bullshit....

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

I appreciate those kind of posts because I know them to be heartfelt.

It really is.

Cheer the fuck up!!! lol

[Peaches]

When I make a decision to poot it causes large tidal waves on the other side of the world. I can't prove it though

[PornoDoggy]

I admit that this thread surprised me – I did not know Sar was a Moslem. (“They was all Moslems, Tom said, and when I asked him what a Moslem was, he said it was a person that wasn't a Presbyterian. So there is plenty of them in Missouri, though I didn't know it before.” Huck Finn (Mark Twain), Tom Sawyer Abroad, Page 1, Paragraph 5)

Belief in an afterlife is not a prerequisite for achieving quality of life. The fact that I do or don't believe in a state of existence subsequent to this one has no bearing on whether this existence is worth enduring.

Why are we here?

Because we are.

It is really that simple.

That's a hard one for people to accept. After all, at least in the West, as children we are taught that "because is not an answer."

Except that sometimes it is. As usual, the fucking grownups were lying.

I dunno about the whole idea of God. Grew up a Christian. Might have read a book or two about other concepts - I'm sure the library records are now in my file in Washington.

It's all just man trying to wrap his head around the whole "why are we here" question, and having been programmed that "because is not an answer" by the lying fucking adults, he comes up with something else (even if that something else is "there is no point"). Then ego kicks in, and the holder of idea A has to denigrate the holder of idea B to make himself feel better about his own uncertainty.

So I dunno what’s true or what’s not true. I am an Agnostic. If you can't prove your idea to me by putting something in my hand, or showing me something under a microscope or in a telescope, then your idea is no better than his or hers or mine. Smug nonbelievers are no more and no less insufferable than smug believers.

What do I believe?

In a silly-ass song from the play "Hair" is a line that goes "I believe in God, and I believe that God believes in me."

To crudely paraphrase a discussion between Anna and the King of Siam, "seven days or seven million years, the miracle of creation is the same."

And to quote a wise man, "Sometimes the light is shining on me, and other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me what a long strange trip it's been."

Essentially, that has been the gist of my "theology" since 1970.

Thus endeth the reading of the Word.

Bird is the word.

Um-papa uuuh moow moow.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Why are we here?

Because we are.

It is really that simple.

That's a hard one for people to accept. After all, at least in the West, as children we are taught that "because is not an answer."

Except that sometimes it is. As usual, the fucking grownups were lying.

I was luckier. I was raised Roman Catholic, where "it's a mystery" was the stock answer for most questions in Catechism class. The "no answer" answer. Even has a kid I knew that meant "we haven't got a fucking clue."

We're here because we're supposed to be...if we weren't supposed to be, we wouldn't be. Why are we supposed to be? No fucking clue.

One of the most comforting, wonderful ephiphanies I ever had in my life was the realization that I don't have to know. I'm not in charge. Whoever or whatever the Supreme Being is, I know for certain it isn't me. Therefore, the universe will unfold exactly as it should without any understanding or intervention on my part. I can sit back and enjoy the ride.

I like the ride. From where I'm sitting I can look out my living room window and watch hawks ride the air currents and hummingbirds feed off the jade plant. Discussing theology with Opranauts is a nice thing to do on a day when the sun is shining and the birds are flying.

[OldJeff]

Decisions are not actions, acting on a decision is.

It is every bit as arrogant, and ignorant to say "THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE" as it is to say "THERE IS ONE".

Truth is we simply do not know. But we are gonna find out, maybe, maybe not.

[Dravyk]

Btw, I just read through about 100 posts. Can some one tell me WTF that old coot is talking about this time? A summary?




So far it seems to have something to do with coffee.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Btw, I just read through about 100 posts. Can some one tell me WTF that old coot is talking about this time? A summary?

I'd be surprised if he even knew.

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Trev

I'd be surprised if he even knew.

Ah, so it isn't my total lack of sleep. Good to know.

[TheEnforcer]

Good post PD! :>))

[PornoDoggy]

I've had some practice at this one.

This is a discussion that takes place around the tables of 12 step groups on a routine basis.

It's more than mere semantics.

If human beings were wired binary, a decision would be an action.

We ain't.

It ain't.

[Dravyk]

Is the chair casting a shadow or is the shadow casting a chair?







I'm Super Cunty today.

[Newton]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I'm Super Cunty today.

Delightful

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Is the chair casting a shadow or is the shadow casting a chair?







I'm Super Cunty today.

Of course you are, dear. It's a day that ends in "Y."

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Of course you are, dear. It's a day that ends in "Y."

On another day, I'd laugh, give you a thumbs up and some points ....

Today, I'll just growl.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I've had some practice at this one.

This is a discussion that takes place around the tables of 12 step groups on a routine basis.

It's more than mere semantics.

If human beings were wired binary, a decision would be an action.

We ain't.

It ain't.

In a 12 Step Program it is necessary that decisions never be considered actions. The members would float on "well, I've made the decision to stop...whatever so I get points for that." No, you don't. Not in 12 Steps. In those programs, there are *specific* actions that must be undertaken.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

In a 12 Step Program it is necessary that decisions never be considered actions. The members would float on "well, I've made the decision to stop...whatever so I get points for that." No, you don't. Not in 12 Steps. In those programs, there are *specific* actions that must be undertaken.

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

No, that's true.
But I'm making a separation between the actions that isn't determined by the results. The decision to lose weight was one action; the subsequent action that actually causes the weight loss (which is in reality a series of daily decisions) is another.
One can have the first action and a failure to commit the subsequent actions.

[MorganGrayson]

Paraphrasing:

Hear the clash of tiny swords of semantics....

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

If you want to get coffee or lose weight, there are specific actions that need to be taken.

Deciding you need coffee or are fat does not get you any Joe or any thinner.

You are right, deciding does not get you thinner. That is not the result of deciding. The result of deciding is whatever the next step in the process would be.

However, not deciding is also a decision and an action who's result is NOT the next ste[p in the process of losing weight.

We are the sum total of all decsions we have made.

[Newton]

Originally Posted by sarettah

We are the sum total of all decsions we have made.

I fucking hate traffic wardens ..

[PornoDoggy]

And today is different from any other day because ... ?

[PornoDoggy]

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

Yes. You have *made* a decision.
The fact that it is an asinine decision does not enter into it.

Most actions people take, mentally and physically, are rather asinine, as a perusal of the morning news will display.

[Dravyk]

I've made the decision that and the action of metaphysically hitting you all with a trout.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I've made the decision that and the action of metaphysically hitting you all with a trout.

*sigh*

...and taken the action of....

I hate it when bad things happen to good sentences.

[Trev]

I really should have thought long and hard before uploading so many smilies

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

So ... if I decide I want to play professional baseball next summer, and draw a salary 10% higher than Roger Clemens - I've taken an action?

The action you have taken is "setting a goal", so yes.

[Sin]

Must suck having no belief system at all... I agree religion is bullshit but I don't think that spirituality is bullshit.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Must suck having no belief system at all... I agree religion is bullshit but I don't think that spirituality is bullshit.

Define spirituality.

[Sin]

For me its easier to just paste the summary of my personal beliefs.
(This is from another forum, non-adult, where a similar discussion was taking place)

Alright, since I do not believe in "a form of overseer or creator" I will start by trying to outline my own personal beliefs...

I really have no real recollection of when specifically I decided that I simply did not believe in a singular higher power. I was baptized, grew up in a religious family, went to church camps in the summer, was a member of CGIT... etc. At some point, however, I concluded that the notion of a singular higher power simply did not fit. I would rather use the terms "singular higher power" than "God" because for me "God" is associated with Christianity & to only acknowledge "God" is to disregard the existance of other organized religions which have existed just as long, if not longer.

When I look back at the theories of evolution, scientifically proven, they make sense. When I look at other science theories, how smaller pieces interact with one another to make a greater whole, it makes sense. Nowhere in our world, in any kind of level, does it make sense to have a singular higher power. Physically, we have protons & neutrons which make up the nucleus which is a part of atoms which compose molecules which compose matter, which plays whatever part it happens to have, in our physical realm, even if its as seemingly insignificant as a trashcan, it has its place in the room in the building the building has its place in the community, the community has its place in the country, the country has its place in the world/on earth, earth has its place in the universe... it goes on as so. Politically we have the children which are a part of the family which is a part of the community which leads up to the municipal government which leads up to provincial/state/whatever the system is level of government, which leads up to national government, which has its part in the global society again... everything interacts, everything plays a part of something even bigger. To me the idea of a single higher power that is due credit for 'creating' and then stepping back & having nothing else to do with us but play chess with our destinies, doesn't fit in the way nature itself, works. So many more examples could be brought up than the 2 I detailed above, which are extremely basic.

I do believe in a soul. I believe that yet again, our very presence here on earth is an integral part of a soul's development. Think back to the days when a classroom was not segregated by age rank, and everybody was in one room, one instructor, learning together. Enlarge that now.... Earth is our classroom, we are all the students, and we are all at different levels. We have all encountered people who without even trying can manage to somehow unintentionally make us feel small in comparison, or look up to them, and we've also on the other hand met or heard stories about yet other people who do things which shock and appall us because "Don't they know that's wrong?" --Chances are they don't know that's wrong. Chances are (in my personal belief system) that we're shocked & appalled because their behavior is something that our soul has already learned, in a past life. There are some things that parents, teachers, other mentor figureheads in our lives, don't tell us that we just KNOW is wrong. That knowledge, comes from our past experiences in this classroom we call earth. From other lives, from other lessons. Our soul will come back life after life after life, until it has grown up enough if you will, to move on past the classroom, past this earth, into yet even a bigger picture, a larger more matured 'soul system' if you will. Much like children go through school, to graduate, and become members of the community, each fulfills a different purpose.

I do believe in Karma. I'm putting this in a seperate paragraph because its a bit of a sidetrack. Lessons for a soul are not always going to be learned in one lifetime, I do not believe. I'll use Clifford Olson as my example... I do not believe that jail is karma for him. I do not believe that being in jail is teaching his soul anything, that he is truly learning the err of his ways. I believe that when he passes from this life, the particular lesson he's here to learn, will carry on to the next life, possibly lives. When he is here as a child, and dies a horribly violent death, perhaps one for each child he killed, when his soul comes back and is the parent of a child who is killed, that is when his soul will truly understand, when it will truly have learned, when it will come back & live a life & not kill again, it'll know not to... it will be here for another lesson, a different one.

That’s a summary

I could probably add plenty more detail to that if I felt like typing it all out, but hopefully that gives you all a general idea.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

For me its easier to just paste the summary of my personal beliefs.
(This is from another forum, non-adult, where a similar discussion was taking place)

Alright, since I do not believe in "a form of overseer or creator" I will start by trying to outline my own personal beliefs...

Autobigraphical stuff...........

Theory stuff.........

Soul stuff.........

Karma stuff............

That’s a summary

I could probably add plenty more detail to that if I felt like typing it all out, but hopefully that gives you all a general idea.

Ok, I read all of that (really I did) and I did not see any definition of spirituality in there. I saw a whole lot of stuff you believe and why you believe it, but previously you stated "I don't think that spirituality is bullshit", so if you could please elucidate as to what you consider "spirituality" to be, I will then shoot it down er, I mean, offer up my opinion on the matter

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Ok, I read all of that (really I did) and I did not see any definition of spirituality in there. I saw a whole lot of stuff you believe and why you believe it, but previously you stated "I don't think that spirituality is bullshit", so if you could please elucidate as to what you consider "spirituality" to be, I will then shoot it down er, I mean, offer up my opinion on the matter

*WHOOSH*

....it all went over your head, I see.

I don't think spirituality is bullshit no, for me, the above is my idea of being spiritual, (of or pertaining to the spirit/soul)

You, however, don't believe in the presence of a soul it would seem, so naturally you'll disagree.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

*WHOOSH*

....it all went over your head, I see.

I don't think spirituality is bullshit no, for me, the above is my idea of being spiritual, (of or pertaining to the spirit/soul)

You, however, don't believe in the presence of a soul it would seem, so naturally you'll disagree.

So, in your definition of spirituality which you are so not giving me, it requires belief in a soul.

Ok, then would you define soul for me ?

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by Sin

*WHOOSH*

....it all went over your head, I see.

Most things do for Sarettah.

Just like his hair.

[Sin]

Sarettah, I am not going to spend hours trying to give definitions to things you don't believe in to start with. I'm not here to change your mind, you don't want to believe in the spirit or souls, that's fine with me. I do, & that's fine with me too.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

Sarettah, I am not going to spend hours trying to give definitions to things you don't believe in to start with. I'm not here to change your mind, you don't want to believe in the spirit or souls, that's fine with me. I do, & that's fine with me too.

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

I honestly cannot discuss spirtuality or the presence/absence of souls with someone without defining the terms first. It seems that each individual has decided that they have the right to assign whatever meanings they want to words. So, since I know what I mean when I say "spirituality" and "soul", I do not necessarilly know anything about what you mean when you use those words.

If it would take you hours to define, then you probably don't know what you mean either

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

In regards to that, see first post in this thread.

Originally Posted by sarettah

Sorry bout that, but it is.

We are no different than anything else in nature.

We are born and we die.

Beginning of it and end of it. Period.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

In regards to that, see first post in this thread.

Again, where do you get my beliefs from in there.

I stated facts not beliefs.

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Again, where do you get my beliefs from in there.

I stated facts not beliefs.

You stated beliefs.
You can neither disprove the presence of a spirit or soul anymore than I can prove it. It boils down to what we as individuals, choose to believe or disbelieve.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by sarettah

I have not said anything in this thread as to what I believe or do not believe, if you found that in here, you (or some other commenter) put it here (and yes I will go back through and make sure of that).

Check thread title....

[Sin]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

lol That too

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

I believe the yuts use the term..OWNED!!!!

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

I believe the yuts use the term..OWNED!!!!

Hi Yut

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Check thread title....

Response one:
The thread title is based in fact, not belief


Secondary response:
If my thread titles are taken as my beliefs then you guys have a really warped picture of me...lololol...

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Response one:
The thread title is based in fact, not belief


Secondary response:
If my thread titles are taken as my beliefs then you guys have a really warped picture of me...lololol...

Oh, for fuck's sake, sarettah...enough already!! My chain is curled up and safely put away and no longer available for the yank session you've got going.

"Thread title is based in fact, not belief"

Yeah, baby, sell those facts...pass that collection plate...sell those bibbles....

[Sin]

It would take hours to define, because you would keep on asking me to redefine it.

Check the first post on this page, for definition.

"Spirituality: of or pertaining to spirit / soul"

If either spirit or soul had a set definition beyond a personal interpretation of what it is, there wouldn't be any real choice about whether or not you're going to believe, it would be fact, not personal belief/interpretation/etc.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Sin

It would take hours to define, because you would keep on asking me to redefine it.

Check the first post on this page, for definition.

"Spirituality: of or pertaining to spirit / soul"

If either spirit or soul had a set definition beyond a personal interpretation of what it is, there wouldn't be any real choice about whether or not you're going to believe, it would be fact, not personal belief/interpretation/etc.

Well, of course if "spirit" is in the definition of spirituality then it needs to be defined. If spirit is synonymous with soul then one or the other has to be defined before an intelligent conversation can be had about it.

If your idea of spirit is "thought without physical presence" meaning ghosties and goblins and such then yes, I will label it as bullshit.

If spirit is definied as the inner lifeforce that all living things have then I would not label that as bullshit. It is a fact that we are driven by energy, we convert energy every nanosecond we are alive and when we die whatever energy is left in the physical parts that remain go back to the whole.

So, which definition of spirit are we using here ?

[Sin]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Well, of course if "spirit" is in the definition of spirituality then it needs to be defined. If spirit is synonymous with soul then one or the other has to be defined before an intelligent conversation can be had about it.

If your idea of spirit is "thought without physical presence" meaning ghosties and goblins and such then yes, I will label it as bullshit.

If spirit is definied as the inner lifeforce that all living things have then I would not label that as bullshit. It is a fact that we are driven by energy, we convert energy every nanosecond we are alive and when we die whatever energy is left in the physical parts that remain go back to the whole.

So, which definition of spirit are we using here ?

The latter definition you gave there. I don't believe in ghosties & goblins, I believe in "ghosties" in the sense that the energy of an individual can linger in an area after their physical form has passed, I've lived in a house where the original owners energy was still there & it was not 'hoaxy' it was quite noticeable not just to me, but my roommates, and any guests we had as well.

I don't believe in billowing white floaty things though.

[Nickatilynx]

On the subject of ghosties...

I've never been grabbed by the ghosties , but I have been grabbed by the ghoulies.

[Newton]

I have actually experienced a poltergeist at my ex sister in laws place in London .. saw a plank of wood she was using as a shelf with 3 or 4 books on, literally flip over several times which isnt possibly with the weight of the books on it .. was looking straight at it ..

Another time I was in a dark room with no light except for the moonlight .. saw 3 figures who were actually a lot darker than the black of the walls move along them, these were hooded figures with features that could be seen such as fingers creeping along the wall and about 5.5ft tall.