Programming Languages

[EricP]

What do you build Web Applications with?

[EricP]

I wonder what the 'Other' was?



Last edited by EricP at Oct 30 2002, 04:26 PM

[sextoyking]

Hi,

for most of our online stores I prefer php/mysql for the software.

Real stable and fast. Of course good old perl/cgi works great too

[EricP]

PHP and MySQL are solid...but ASP.NET using VisualBasic.NET with a backend SQL Server is my preferred choice.

Not only can you now program with full object orientation using VB.NET, but you can also program using other OO languages that all interact with the CLR (Common Language Runtime Environment)

Whats neat about it is the .NET Framework is open for any programming language and more and more vendors are porting their language to interact with the CLR.

With .NET you can build ASP.NET pages with:

C++
C#
COBOL
EIFFEL
Jscript
Perl
Python
VisualBasic.NET

...And Many More.


By accessing the CLR, one language can basically do everything the others can...so its just a matter of preference.

Web Services are a whole other ball game too....but I will spare you on my rambling.

The power once only seen in Desktop Applications is now right in a ASP.NET web page.

Some very powerful things are in the works Just wait and see

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by EricP

By accessing the CLR, one language can basically do everything the others can...so its just a matter of preference.

That's not accurate, while it can be said that all Turing Complete languages are equivalent, they are most definitely not so, as some languages do not support certain programming paradigms properly (OOP is neither the only nor the best, by far) and expressiveness and succinctness are not equal across all languages.

The CLR RESTRICTS what you can do more than it empowers you. That's from experience.

Try Lisp/Haskell/Erlang without an IDE, on a Unix/Linux/*BSD machine, and you will see what I am talking about.

As far as Web Applications, try Python + Django/TurboGears. Those, in the right hands, are unbeatable by anything M$FT has done, does, or will ever do.

[EricP]

There are some things I do in PHP only because not everyone has a Windows Server.


PHP is a good scripting language....but the way of the future it truly .NET.


I hear people are working right now on getting a port of ASP.NET to run on Nix servers.

[JerryW]

I'll still take PHP/mysql over ASP. It's free, it's fast, it runs on almost every system, it's easy to make secure and I don't haver to worry about Microsoft's track record of security. It Not to mention Microsoft usually takes a couple of generations to get a technology right.

[EricP]

Originally posted by JerryW@Nov 3 2002, 06:38 PM
I'll still take PHP/mysql over ASP. It's free, it's fast, it runs on almost every system, it's easy to make secure and I don't haver to worry about Microsoft's track record of security. It Not to mention Microsoft usually takes a couple of generations to get a technology right.

Hi JerryW,

While I do agree PHP is a good scripting language, it does not compare to the power of using a full blown OO language like C#, C++, or VB.NET right in a web page.

As far as the security issues are concerned, a large majority of current security cases are caused from inexperienced admin who do not follow MS Security Recommendations properly, thus the reason Microsoft put out such FREE software as;

The " v4 Windows Update " Their latest version that updates your system or network automatically.

The " Baseline Security Analyzer " that will probe your entire system (or Network) and tell you how to fix security vulnerabilities.

The " IIS Lockdown Tool " that locks down IIS from well known mis-configurations that could allow a breach in security.


Now, if very well paid Sys.Admin were as smart as their 4 year computer degree says they are, they would be using the tools above to help secure a W2K Server.

I stay on top of updates, I know how to configure a Tight W2K Server, and I have never had any problems with Security.

I do agree PHP/MySQL are tight, and would probably be using them now If I never saw the power of .NET.



Last edited by EricP at Nov 3 2002, 07:59 PM

[JerryW]

Eric,

I'm a long time C++ programmer (since '87, C since '77 ), so I know the power of a full OO language. If I was doing a major web project, on the scale of cnn.com or yahoo.com, with a team of developers, such tools would be useful.

But for the projects I work on, the power would be overkill. Things like the stores at photogregg.com and contentbroadband.com and most projects I've seen on the adult web, the power is overkill and PHP/Mysql works very well. The only thing missing from Mysql that I would want is transactions and the latest version has that. Or I could switch to Postgresql for them.

The OO features of PHP are quite adequate for smaller projects and I very rarely miss things like templates and such.

With Security as you say the admin can keep a system secure. But it's the undiscovered holes I worry about.

[EricP]

Hi Jerry,

Wow, I envy your experience as a long time programmer. I can't wait until I can say that one day!

The only thing I really have to say to your response is:

The internet is changing. Machines are more powerful, connections are faster. The future of the internet is going to be a whole different ball game from where I am sitting

Why not stay one step ahead of the rest? After all, it can only get better

You want me to trust a Micro$oft development enviroment when they can't even release a mail client, web browser, or web server that is mildly secure?

Last head to head comparsion I saw showed php to be a least 125% to 200% faster than Java, ASP, .Net or ColdFusion.

PHP and MySQL are the way to go. Just do the proper bounds checking.

[EricP]

Originally posted by Snowone@Nov 6 2002, 03:14 AM
You want me to trust a Micro$oft development enviroment when they can't even release a mail client, web browser, or web server that is mildly secure?

Last head to head comparsion I saw showed php to be a least 125% to 200% faster than Java, ASP, .Net or ColdFusion.

PHP and MySQL are the way to go. Just do the proper bounds checking.

Back to the Security thing eh? Man, that argument is really getting old.

I have used all versions of Windows since 95 all the way up to Windows .NET Server 2003 Beta.
I have used all versions of Microsoft Office since 97 to 2002.
I have used IE since 4.0 to 6.01.

If you don't know how to use Windows Update, a Firewall, or Virus Protection, you should not be on the Internet. If you don't secure your system properly, you will have problems. Tell me, what type of Security problems have you had?

As far as the Benchmarks are concerned, read my previous posts carefully.
Just because a PHP script can load in 000002.54 seconds and a ASP.NET script loads in 000002.76 seconds....do you really think that matters much to a surfer? Comparing PHP to a full blown OO language is like comparing an 88 Dodge Aries to a new Hummer

Anyway, I have already agreed that PHP is tight, and I use it on a Regular basis, but it is not in the same league as .NET, or Java for that matter.






Last edited by EricP at Nov 6 2002, 11:13 AM

[moetheman]

The Windows security problems stem from the fact that its codebase dates back to the days before the web became prevalent, therefore, you are looking at an architecture that was not designed with security in mind. Attempting to secure a Windows system is similar to trying to bail out a boat with a sieve. For proof of that, Google is Your Friend.

[deviant]

Originally Posted by moetheman

Attempting to secure a Windows system is similar to trying to bail out a boat with a sieve. For proof of that, Google is Your Friend.

This isn't entirely true. I work in security and a majority of web based vulnerabilities over the last couple of years have been found in linux based systems and not windows. There have been numerous vulnerabilities found in PHP itself over the last couple of years that lead to all kinds of privilege escalation issues (and some famous incidents). Microsoft has done a much better job with locking down it's more recent product lines (2003 on). It is also a lot easier to over look input sanitisation in PHP applications which lead to SQL Injection, Remote File Includes, Null byte attacks, and cross site scripting. Here's a list of vulerabilites found in PHP ITSELF during may of this year alone.

PHP 5 'php_sprintf_appendstring()' Remote Integer Overflow Vulnerability
2008-05-28
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/28392

PHP Multiple Input Validation Vulnerabilities
2008-05-28
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/19582

PHP 5.2.5 and Prior Versions Multiple Vulnerabilities
2008-05-28
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/29009

PHP cURL 'safe mode' Security Bypass Vulnerability
2008-05-28
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/27413

PCRE Character Class Buffer Overflow Vulnerability
2008-05-23
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/27786

PHP 5.2.4 and Prior Versions Multiple Vulnerabilities
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/26403

PHP .Htaccess Safe_Mode and Open_Basedir Restriction-Bypass Vulnerability
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/24661

PHP 5.2.3 and Prior Versions Multiple Vulnerabilities
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/25498

PHP Chunk_Split() Function Integer Overflow Vulnerability
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/24261

PHP Glob() Function Arbitrary Code Execution Vulnerability
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/24922

PHP EXT/Session HTTP Response Header Injection Vulnerability
2008-05-20
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/24268

T1lib intT1_Env_GetCompletePath Buffer Overflow Vulnerability
2008-05-13
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/25079

GD Graphics Library PNG File Processing Denial of Service Vulnerability
2008-05-13
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/24089

PCRE Regular Expression Heap Overflow Vulnerability
2008-05-05
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/14620

There hasn't been a vulnerability found in ASP.NET since 2007 and even then there were only two found that year both relatively minor issues.

Let me be clear, I'm actually a linux guy and I hate using windows as an operating system outside of certian tasks. Internet Explorer and other items not included, Windows severs have actually become a very easy platform to secure especially in relation to the IIS/.Net webapp world in comparison to the alternatives.

I could also go into linux kernel vulns vs windows OS vulns but which is much the same story.

I still use linux and PHP for webapps, but I have to stay on top of it like a hawk.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by deviant

This isn't entirely true. I work in security and a majority of web based vulnerabilities over the last couple of years have been found in linux based systems and not windows.

There hasn't been a vulnerability found in ASP.NET since 2007 and even then there were only two found that year both relatively minor issues.

I could also go into linux kernel vulns vs windows OS vulns but which is much the same story.

I still use linux and PHP for webapps, but I have to stay on top of it like a hawk.

Well, how many vulnerabilities do you think would be found in Windows if everyone had access to the source code? Seriously. The very permissions model windows uses is flawed.

From the user's point of view, the inability to see the source code is a security flaw in and of itself.

Now, about programming languages being insecure, I find that it is the programmer's skill that determines whether software is secure, not the language itself, if it were totally a language issue, then Ada would be the only safe language to write applications in, period.

It really is funny that you claim M$FT products are more secure than open source - when was the last time the world witnessed one of the many security disasters we have all seen (do I really need to list them?) in the M$FT camp in relation to FOSS? Seriously man, please enlighten me, because I seriously can't remember the occasion.

If you truly have to constantly watch something like a hawk, you are doing something wrong friend. Software security is not something which you implement by watching over something at all times.

Funny, this is the only board I have ever seen on the web where M$FT products are safe (and powerful) and MAC addresses do not exist, or behave according to the whim of whatever jackass is posting.

Laughable.

[gonzo]

Oh hell its about to be on now.

[deviant]

Originally Posted by moetheman

Well, how many vulnerabilities do you think would be found in Windows if everyone had access to the source code? Seriously. The very permissions model windows uses is flawed.

From the user's point of view, the inability to see the source code is a security flaw in and of itself.

Now, about programming languages being insecure, I find that it is the programmer's skill that determines whether software is secure, not the language itself, if it were totally a language issue, then Ada would be the only safe language to write applications in, period.

It really is funny that you claim M$FT products are more secure than open source - when was the last time the world witnessed one of the many security disasters we have all seen (do I really need to list them?) in the M$FT camp in relation to FOSS? Seriously man, please enlighten me, because I seriously can't remember the occasion.

If you truly have to constantly watch something like a hawk, you are doing something wrong friend. Software security is not something which you implement by watching over something at all times.

Funny, this is the only board I have ever seen on the web where M$FT products are safe (and powerful) and MAC addresses do not exist, or behave according to the whim of whatever jackass is posting.

Laughable.

Your post makes it obvious that what you understand in relation to security and what you think you understand are two different things.

I'm not holding security class today.

If you admin all your boxes and haven't been applying a shitload of updates over the last year to your linux boxes (in reference to watching things like a hawk.) then LOL @ you. I hope you're not storing any credit card data. If you're in a shared hosting environment, you better hope that the hosting provider is doing more than just updating cpanel.

I'm not new to the internet, I know what kind of situation this is. It's kind of like a political debate where one side digs in to argue their point with out really understanding the issue. It doesn't matter what you tell that person, they're still going to try and argue their side. Participating in those kinds of arguments are a big waste of time.

Based on your post it is obvious that you have a very very rudimentary understanding of security and what leads to vulnerabilities. When I made the post above, I was simply stating facts (which you're obviously not interested in, or unable to understand), not trying to get into an "z0mg which OS is bettar!?!?!" flame war.

Now, about programming languages being insecure, I find that it is the programmer's skill that determines whether software is secure

So, the long and short of it is. I'm not here to teach security class and there are some huge gaps in your understanding that would take a lot more time than I'm willing to give in order to fill them in.

The fact that you need $100's of third party software to make windows secure doesn't really make it a better choice in my mind.

FreeBSD|LINUX|OpenBSD && PHP are cheaper, faster, and run on cheaper hardware, plus they're easier to administer than windows.

For most web projects, you don't need a full-blown Object Oriented interface, and even if you do want one, Perl and PHP both have fair to moderate object orientation (Ok, so no data hiding, but they do inherritance and modularization.)

Plus, PHP since 4.2 even comes with a nice big Object Library (PEAR) that does XML-RPC, and all of the neat stuff that .NET is supposed to address.



Last edited by GreyLurk at Nov 6 2002, 11:05 AM

[EricP]

Originally posted by GreyLurk@Nov 6 2002, 01:55 PM
.... that does XML-RPC, and all of the neat stuff that .NET is supposed to address.

Do some research and then come back and say that please

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default....cpref_start.asp

The .NET Framework has over 3400 Classes.

[Opti]

Originally posted by EricP@Nov 7 2002, 01:47 AM
Just because a PHP script can load in 000002.54 seconds and a ASP.NET script loads in 000002.76 seconds

I feel the need for speed... LAMP 4 me... and Fuck Microsoft.. .net is a TLD not their property imho

.22 seconds adds up and = less sales

[EricP]

Originally posted by Opti+Nov 7 2002, 03:19 AM-->