Checkout what I drove today: A Tesla Roadster.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I think there's nothing that can be said to move you towards a Tesla...so this is an exercise in futility.

You just want to be a negative nanny.....

next you'll be saying "Well, it's a red car, and statistically, they have more accidents, so that's a bad idea...."


Alex ===>>> :.................. <====EJ's Tesla

It's what is so enjoyable having a debate with you. Rather than discussing facts and reality, you would rather name call and run away. Please, address reality. Do you not go somewhere and then come back? Do you not know that you should not partial recharge batteries? DO you not know that battery efficiency is hurt if you over charge or over deplete?

Did you consider that most people that can afford 6 figures for a car are going to live more than 20 miles from their place of business? Perhaps they might want to run some errands at lunch, after work, maybe meet some friends in the next town over for dinner, perhaps go golfing in the countryside? average commute isn't a very good indicator of usefulness for the target market.

So rather than tossing up icons and insults, how about actually discussing the topic at hand?

[2muchmark2]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

It's what is so enjoyable having a debate with you. Rather than discussing facts and reality, you would rather name call and run away. Please, address reality. Do you not go somewhere and then come back? Do you not know that you should not partial recharge batteries? DO you not know that battery efficiency is hurt if you over charge or over deplete?

Did you consider that most people that can afford 6 figures for a car are going to live more than 20 miles from their place of business? Perhaps they might want to run some errands at lunch, after work, maybe meet some friends in the next town over for dinner, perhaps go golfing in the countryside? average commute isn't a very good indicator of usefulness for the target market.

So rather than tossing up icons and insults, how about actually discussing the topic at hand?

Alex, I think that everything that EJ has said so far is right. It's your facts that seem a little off.

Anyway, you're missing the point. Even if the numbers aren't dead-on, so what? Imagine if this were a $50,000 car instead of a $100k car. What do you get for $50k?

- 288 Mile Range
- High Tech
- Light Weight
- No gas to buy, ever.
- No pollution
- No Oil to change.
- Much fewer parts to break down (2 electric motors, a computer, batteries)
- Super-silent drive (no silly freakin' noise pollution)
- High tech, high tech, high tech
- Sick speed
- Slick looks

Trust me, I hear your arguments against it. I've owned 11 cars including my current 2010 426 Horsepower Camaro, which I loved up until I drove the Tesla. Now to me, all Gas cars seem so ... old! I'll be selling my Camaro near the end of the summer and hope to buy an electric next spring. Seriously... !

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by 2muchmark2

Alex, I think that everything that EJ has said so far is right. It's your facts that seem a little off.

Anyway, you're missing the point. Even if the numbers aren't dead-on, so what? Imagine if this were a $50,000 car instead of a $100k car. What do you get for $50k?

- 288 Mile Range
- High Tech
- Light Weight
- No gas to buy, ever.
- No pollution
- No Oil to change.
- Much fewer parts to break down (2 electric motors, a computer, batteries)
- Super-silent drive (no silly freakin' noise pollution)
- High tech, high tech, high tech
- Sick speed
- Slick looks

Trust me, I hear your arguments against it. I've owned 11 cars including my current 2010 426 Horsepower Camaro, which I loved up until I drove the Tesla. Now to me, all Gas cars seem so ... old! I'll be selling my Camaro near the end of the summer and hope to buy an electric next spring. Seriously... !

Mark,

let's start at the top. The batteries are always an issue. Even companies like Toyota who have spent billions of dollars to get their hybrids right admit that the batteries are an issue. You should not charge them full, you should not drain them completely. Neither condition is good for them. Partial charging is also NOT recommended. Memory effect specifically an issue for lithium batteries, but partial charging (especially bump charging in the middle of a discharge cycle) still isn't the best way to do things.

EPA range on the Tesla Roadstar is 221 miles, using a very, very light duty cycle run. As noted in this road test: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ster-road_test - they got more than 160 miles, but if they ran the car on the highway at speed, it wasn't going to last very long. One European Autobahn test had the car pretty much running out of energy quickly if driving like a sports car on the open road.

The batteries also tend to overheat if you run the car hard, more than a couple of quarter mile runs (12 seconds or so full throttle) is enough to get the engine controller to shut down the fun.

Recharge time on 120V is a consumer friendly 37 hours. If you happen to be able to wing up a 220V connector, it will recharge overnight, pulling 30-70A during the cycle. The vast majority of city dwellers will not be able to use this type of car because they will lack a proper place to plug it in (think condos, or houses with only outdoor parking, or worse, street parking).

"no gas to by". Mark, we are lucky to live in a province where the vast majority of our power is created by hydro electric dams. However, if even a small percentage of cars in Quebec were converted to electric power, it is likely that we would have add things like natural gas or even coal fired plants to be able to generate enough extra power to support all of this. In the US, where hydro power is rare, they are often burning oil, natural gas, or coal to generate the electricity. In the end, it is the same difference, you can burn it in your car, or burn it at the power plant and suffer the line losses in getting it to your house.

So the car isn't a no pollution option, just a pollution shifter. The range isn't very exciting (I live at home and knock off 30,000 plus kms a year, or almost 45 miles a day). If I actually had to travel downtown from the burbs every day, run some errands, etc, I would be very leery of a car with a limited range and no simple way to recharge.

[softball]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Mark,

let's start at the top. The batteries are always an issue. Even companies like Toyota who have spent billions of dollars to get their hybrids right admit that the batteries are an issue. You should not charge them full, you should not drain them completely. Neither condition is good for them. Partial charging is also NOT recommended. Memory effect specifically an issue for lithium batteries, but partial charging (especially bump charging in the middle of a discharge cycle) still isn't the best way to do things.

EPA range on the Tesla Roadstar is 221 miles, using a very, very light duty cycle run. As noted in this road test: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ster-road_test - they got more than 160 miles, but if they ran the car on the highway at speed, it wasn't going to last very long. One European Autobahn test had the car pretty much running out of energy quickly if driving like a sports car on the open road.

The batteries also tend to overheat if you run the car hard, more than a couple of quarter mile runs (12 seconds or so full throttle) is enough to get the engine controller to shut down the fun.

Recharge time on 120V is a consumer friendly 37 hours. If you happen to be able to wing up a 220V connector, it will recharge overnight, pulling 30-70A during the cycle. The vast majority of city dwellers will not be able to use this type of car because they will lack a proper place to plug it in (think condos, or houses with only outdoor parking, or worse, street parking).

"no gas to by". Mark, we are lucky to live in a province where the vast majority of our power is created by hydro electric dams. However, if even a small percentage of cars in Quebec were converted to electric power, it is likely that we would have add things like natural gas or even coal fired plants to be able to generate enough extra power to support all of this. In the US, where hydro power is rare, they are often burning oil, natural gas, or coal to generate the electricity. In the end, it is the same difference, you can burn it in your car, or burn it at the power plant and suffer the line losses in getting it to your house.

So the car isn't a no pollution option, just a pollution shifter. The range isn't very exciting (I live at home and knock off 30,000 plus kms a year, or almost 45 miles a day). If I actually had to travel downtown from the burbs every day, run some errands, etc, I would be very leery of a car with a limited range and no simple way to recharge.

Dude, don't you live in like Winnipeg? You could only drive that car a couple of months a year. Ten months of winter you need a Saskatchewan Cadillac....a Bronco. So those batteries are not an issue. This is a high performance car. Not a commuter grocery getter. Step into the future or should I say back to the future. Cutting and pasting choice clips is making you look like an ass. Its like arguing gas mileage on a Lambo.

[2muchmark2]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Mark,

let's start at the top. The batteries are always an issue. Even companies like Toyota who have spent billions of dollars to get their hybrids right admit that the batteries are an issue. You should not charge them full, you should not drain them completely. Neither condition is good for them. Partial charging is also NOT recommended. Memory effect specifically an issue for lithium batteries, but partial charging (especially bump charging in the middle of a discharge cycle) still isn't the best way to do things.

EPA range on the Tesla Roadstar is 221 miles, using a very, very light duty cycle run. As noted in this road test: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ster-road_test - they got more than 160 miles, but if they ran the car on the highway at speed, it wasn't going to last very long. One European Autobahn test had the car pretty much running out of energy quickly if driving like a sports car on the open road.

The batteries also tend to overheat if you run the car hard, more than a couple of quarter mile runs (12 seconds or so full throttle) is enough to get the engine controller to shut down the fun.

Recharge time on 120V is a consumer friendly 37 hours. If you happen to be able to wing up a 220V connector, it will recharge overnight, pulling 30-70A during the cycle. The vast majority of city dwellers will not be able to use this type of car because they will lack a proper place to plug it in (think condos, or houses with only outdoor parking, or worse, street parking).

"no gas to by". Mark, we are lucky to live in a province where the vast majority of our power is created by hydro electric dams. However, if even a small percentage of cars in Quebec were converted to electric power, it is likely that we would have add things like natural gas or even coal fired plants to be able to generate enough extra power to support all of this. In the US, where hydro power is rare, they are often burning oil, natural gas, or coal to generate the electricity. In the end, it is the same difference, you can burn it in your car, or burn it at the power plant and suffer the line losses in getting it to your house.

So the car isn't a no pollution option, just a pollution shifter. The range isn't very exciting (I live at home and knock off 30,000 plus kms a year, or almost 45 miles a day). If I actually had to travel downtown from the burbs every day, run some errands, etc, I would be very leery of a car with a limited range and no simple way to recharge.

Hi Alex,

Well ok there are still some issues to be worked out, but to me anyway, the concept and technology is more than promising.

Since I live in a Province where electricity is "clean", I already have 220v, and my usual trips are less than a 200 miles, electric makes complete sense for people like me.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

It's what is so enjoyable having a debate with you. Rather than discussing facts and reality, you would rather name call and run away. Please, address reality. Do you not go somewhere and then come back? Do you not know that you should not partial recharge batteries? DO you not know that battery efficiency is hurt if you over charge or over deplete?

Did you consider that most people that can afford 6 figures for a car are going to live more than 20 miles from their place of business? Perhaps they might want to run some errands at lunch, after work, maybe meet some friends in the next town over for dinner, perhaps go golfing in the countryside? average commute isn't a very good indicator of usefulness for the target market.

So rather than tossing up icons and insults, how about actually discussing the topic at hand?

I thought it was an excellent use of the icons.
I don't often get to use that Horsie one, and I like it.
We're just gonna have to disagree on this.
I feel the need to like and want a tesla, without slicing and dicing it to pieces.
Unless you have a common frame of reference to compare to other battery cars, (oops, pretty small supply side there,) there really isn't a point discussing it.
As a guy that leads in "new products," you can ALWAYS "make it better."
But at some point you gotta cut bait and fish. The bottom line is, there is a waiting line for teslas. That's the end of the discussion. When they are fighting for market share, then you can say "well, as an armchair economist and marketing expert, this is why they aren't selling any more."

You remember there was PCdos 1.0, right?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

But at some point you gotta cut bait and fish. The bottom line is, there is a waiting line for teslas. That's the end of the discussion.

There is also always a lineup for things, the last one was the CanAm roadster (which, based on personal experience, isn't all that fun to ride). There are always a laundry list of celebutards and others suckered into the "next big thing". They can park the Tesla in their garage next to the box with the Apple Liza and their NeXT PC.

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

You remember there was PCdos 1.0, right?

More importantly, I remember what came before it. Do you?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

There is also always a lineup for things, the last one was the CanAm roadster (which, based on personal experience, isn't all that fun to ride). There are always a laundry list of celebutards and others suckered into the "next big thing". They can park the Tesla in their garage next to the box with the Apple Liza and their NeXT PC.



More importantly, I remember what came before it. Do you?

You bet.
I go back to the warm fuzzy days.
:-)
I was always an early adopter.
I got one of those apple Lisa's at a government sale. At the time, they were selling new for 10K. I think I paid $10 for it, just to have it, and take it apart.

[softball]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

There is also always a lineup for things, the last one was the CanAm roadster (which, based on personal experience, isn't all that fun to ride). There are always a laundry list of celebutards and others suckered into the "next big thing". They can park the Tesla in their garage next to the box with the Apple Liza and their NeXT PC.



More importantly, I remember what came before it. Do you?

If god had meant for man to fly, he would have given him wings. Can you spell dinosaur. Some guys hit a plateau and the world sails by them.

[2muchmark2]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

There is also always a lineup for things, the last one was the CanAm roadster (which, based on personal experience, isn't all that fun to ride). There are always a laundry list of celebutards and others suckered into the "next big thing". They can park the Tesla in their garage next to the box with the Apple Liza and their NeXT PC.

CanAm Roadster:
Looks like fun, never drove one though.

"next big thing"
Why are early adopters suckers? Come on... If you see a gadget, and it is something you want to have and enjoy, and you have the money, you buy it. It either catches on or it doesn't. Why does that make anyone a sucker?

As for celebutards, whats wrong with having passion for a cause? These are people with money and a following, and they believe in something and want to make their ideas known. If you don't agree, just ignore them. Whats the prob?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by 2muchmark2

CanAm Roadster:
Looks like fun, never drove one though.

"next big thing"
Why are early adopters suckers? Come on... If you see a gadget, and it is something you want to have and enjoy, and you have the money, you buy it. It either catches on or it doesn't. Why does that make anyone a sucker?

As for celebutards, whats wrong with having passion for a cause? These are people with money and a following, and they believe in something and want to make their ideas known. If you don't agree, just ignore them. Whats the prob?

Too many of the celebs 'have a cause' because someone told them it was good to appear in a positive light. It works well when they are trying to get the public to forget their latest DUI charge or whatever.

They also tend to have more money than brains, and end up getting lead into buying the latest thing to look good. The Tesla might be a good product 5 - 10 years from now, but for the moment, it is still no entirely ready for prime time (and absolutely nobody is addressing the issues of what will happen with all the toxic waste from the batteries, which will likely need to be replaced entirely every few years).

As for the your clean power, the clean power in Quebec is not unlimited. In fact, if even a very small number of people shifted over to electric cars, the power grid would fry, and the draw down on water in the north would be unsupportable. Any large scale move to electric cars would likely lead to that gas fired power plant project coming back, and many more like it.

CanAm Roadster has a real problem of dynamics, basically it lifts the inside wheel when turning (opposite to motorcycle, which effectively leans into the turn). The weight gets transfered to the outside wheel. Go a little too far, and in theory it is tippy. The machine has a very aggressive stability control that I was able to engage in a parking lot without much effort.

It looks cool, it rides reasonably well, as long as you aren't going to push the issue in the slightest. It pretty much is the worst of a motorcycle and the worst of a car all in one place.