Homegrown remembers when...

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

[gonzo]

ONe more thing as for Pornhub piracy...

This is a very interesting read

http://www.takedownpiracy.com/2010/0...ube-sites.html

[Hell Puppy]

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

[Hell Puppy]

Everyone bitched when pic posts appeared because they gave away too much content...and overall conversion rates for the industry dropped slightly.

Then came thumb posts....those drew much more traffic! Everyone bitched, conversions dropped some more.

Then MGPs....same deal...

Now to draw the huge traffic, you give away full length clips on a tube site...MASSIVE traffic. But conversion rates are insane.

And as the number of customers drop, the temptation to milk every penny you can get off of the credit cards you do see is too much for many.

So how do we outdraw the tubes? HD Tubes? I haven't really dug, but I bet there are some out there. Or maybe we give private cam shows away for free.

We can bitch, moan and fight amongst ourselves, but the reality is we're circling the bowl.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

Bingo

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

I dont know what methodology studios use to communicate. I have found that many I have personally dealt with over the years STILL dont get the internet and could benefit from someone that knows how to work the problems we all face as well as doing some effective PR.

My experience is most use the National Enquirer approach by releasing a promo about having a porn vid of some dead rock guitarist or a statement on offering a mother of 8 a contract to be in a porn video.

I would agree with you on the premium quality issue except for one thing.
When you dont pay for content it frees up money to develop a better free experience than is available in some cases for pay.

I came into this business from the shareware mentality. You hold back something for your paying clients. A feature, the rest of the movie or behind the scenes.

Shareware gave away something for free as well as building goodwill with a base of fans that were potential customers. I know several guys back from the BBS era that became millionaires with this approach and the programs werent very complex.

Marshall Magee and AutoMenu come to mind.
You remember good ole Dos and the command prompt?
This program started out at $5 to register and heres how far it went well after he made his first million.

http://www.magee.com/magee/Automenu.htm

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by gonzo

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

Ahhh, well yea.
That's a shame. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way it is.
The world doesn't work on a group hug.

[Far-L]

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Far-L

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?

We get the same thing.When I worked for Mercedes Benz they drummed into your head without the customer we are nothing. People forget that. We go out of our way for our customers, alot of them cancel thru us. We always ask why are you canceling and take the things to heart on what we can do better. Also if the reason was I lost my job or my hours were cut or im losing my home. We cancel them and also give them a month free and say thank you for being a customer. Many come back and join again and again.