Homegrown remembers when...

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content.

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

Originally Posted by Far-L

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

[tony404]

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by tony404

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

[gonzo]

ONe more thing as for Pornhub piracy...

This is a very interesting read

http://www.takedownpiracy.com/2010/0...ube-sites.html

[Hell Puppy]

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

I dont know what methodology studios use to communicate. I have found that many I have personally dealt with over the years STILL dont get the internet and could benefit from someone that knows how to work the problems we all face as well as doing some effective PR.

My experience is most use the National Enquirer approach by releasing a promo about having a porn vid of some dead rock guitarist or a statement on offering a mother of 8 a contract to be in a porn video.

I would agree with you on the premium quality issue except for one thing.
When you dont pay for content it frees up money to develop a better free experience than is available in some cases for pay.

I came into this business from the shareware mentality. You hold back something for your paying clients. A feature, the rest of the movie or behind the scenes.

Shareware gave away something for free as well as building goodwill with a base of fans that were potential customers. I know several guys back from the BBS era that became millionaires with this approach and the programs werent very complex.

Marshall Magee and AutoMenu come to mind.
You remember good ole Dos and the command prompt?
This program started out at $5 to register and heres how far it went well after he made his first million.

http://www.magee.com/magee/Automenu.htm

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by gonzo

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

Both RawAlex and myself have told you how to tell which videos are stolen. You just have to open your eyes and look. 80% is a conservative estimate.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

I only know what studios told me last year when I was talking with them lat year as we were developing marketing for RealTouch.

Eric works with this every day and all day. Ill see if he has some stats but he keeps a low profile as would I.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

You know that going the full ride to a court case is as likely as Phil Collins wrestling the Ultimate Warrior

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

You know that going the full ride to a court case is as likely as Phil Collins wrestling the Ultimate Warrior

They were one of the first to jump out of the Defense Group in the Acacia matter and sign a licensing deal... Looks great at first looking like heroes of the industry, making press, but the true heroes are those that will go the distance, though they are hardly ever recognized for it.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

They were one of the first to jump out of the Defense Group in the Acacia matter and sign a licensing deal... Looks great at first looking like heroes of the industry, making press, but the true heroes are those that will go the distance, though they are hardly ever recognized for it.

Ill also remind everyone that they sold Yappo out to the same fuckers that own Xtube brokered by the assclown supremeus Bob Rice.

And I see Kristin over on GFY talking about prechecked cross sales as if Top Bucks is some hero of the surfer when they had at least 2 prechecked on the Topbucks sites the last time I looked.

The love that media spin!