Homegrown remembers when...

[softball]

Here is the way I see it Far-L........ Making money stealing other people's hard work (case in point Illegal tubes) is pure and simple theft. Any moron can get hot product and fence it. It makes you a thief. Maybe worse than a crack dealer, who at least pays for his product and if he steals it, runs a high risk of getting shot. If you do business with people who steal from others, you probably think you are at arm's length. I say you are encouraging bad behavior and are consciously involved in theft of other people's hard work.
When I read some of the when we stories on this thread, I kinda shake my head as well. You all seem to look back fondly on some very shady business practices. (some of which were down right illegal). A lot of this stuff is what killed the golden goose. It wasn't smart business at all. Personally, I have never participated in that dishonesty and am not about to start.
I detect a lot of desperation lately in the biz from both big and small companies. And apparently your solution is to dance with the devil. We may have had differences in the past, but I always respected you as a person. But now that the shit has hit the fan, perhaps true character surfaces. I hope I am wrong and you can convince us otherwise. I know I am just a voice in the wilderness.

[Far-L]

Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

EJ - I will take your point much more seriously when we actually see a royalty report for that content of ours that just happens to also be used in your animated sig gif - btw... don't remember authorizing that usage but correct me if I am wrong since that deal is from years ago.

Mike South - I have to worry enough about our content and I am not about to take on yet another battle for this industry. You and I both know that we have our own responsibility to police our own marks. When we contact a tube about our unauthorized usage I base my criticism of them for or against on whether they respond to our remove request quickly and whether they accept our offer to work with authorized versions. Are we getting some sort of preferential treatment? I seriously doubt it. When I first sent emails to the "offenders" I was professional and direct and I often was responded to with compliments for being that way instead of coming at them with the typical tirades that many approach the situation with.

One thing I learned years ago "coming online" is not to believe what you see or hear. I remember freaking about password sites until I learned that the majority of those passwords were seeded by the programs themselves as a means of getting traffic. There is a strong possibility that a lot of so-called unauthorized content going up probably is being put up by programs.

Gonzo - I have heard nothing but great things about that service, thanks for throwing that in.

The truth here is that since the beginning of online adult marketing there has been a business model of free to pay conversion. Has it been abused? Yes. Is there a way for it to work? Yes. Is there going to be a perfect condition where no content goes up unauthorized? No. Does that mean that you can't still try to work with the situation? No, not at all, and like everything else in this world you just have to try to make the best of it.

[Toby]

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Originally Posted by Far-L

Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Actually you are the one missing the point and I would have figured that you would not need it spelled out, but since that is not the case I will do my best to make it simple and clear enough for you to understand.

You and I both know that tgp started with stolen content and mgp as well. You also know that both of those changed in due course due to changing trends in the industry - namely, copyright holders policed their content more and the main purveyors of those traffic pumps changed to be compliant with legalities or face litigation... Now if I am not mistaken, you used to use tgp/mgp to get traffic, correct me if I am wrong, but who did you work with if that was or still is the case? Were all of them squeaky clean from day one? I bet not. In fact, none of them still are because the fact remains that despite their best efforts unauthorized content still gets posted time and again. Or maybe you worked with top list trade scripts? Well, all of those were sorely misused and abused so did that make you a crook because you supported that and did your best to use them in an honest fashion? So what does that make everyone that used or continues to use those advertising methods? Crooks? Tell that to every program out there and see what kind of response you get.

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Here is the way I see it Far-L........ Making money stealing other people's hard work (case in point Illegal tubes) is pure and simple theft. Any moron can get hot product and fence it. It makes you a thief. Maybe worse than a crack dealer, who at least pays for his product and if he steals it, runs a high risk of getting shot. If you do business with people who steal from others, you probably think you are at arm's length. I say you are encouraging bad behavior and are consciously involved in theft of other people's hard work.
When I read some of the when we stories on this thread, I kinda shake my head as well. You all seem to look back fondly on some very shady business practices. (some of which were down right illegal). A lot of this stuff is what killed the golden goose. It wasn't smart business at all. Personally, I have never participated in that dishonesty and am not about to start.
I detect a lot of desperation lately in the biz from both big and small companies. And apparently your solution is to dance with the devil. We may have had differences in the past, but I always respected you as a person. But now that the shit has hit the fan, perhaps true character surfaces. I hope I am wrong and you can convince us otherwise. I know I am just a voice in the wilderness.

I don't believe in content theft at all, nor was any of my recollections fond remembrances condoning the behaviours or business practices of those that went down in flames. I love that quote from Sun Tzu that runs something like "happiness is seeing the bodies of your enemies float by in the river". Will some of these companies be the companies of tomorrow that burn up in thier own greed? I hope so and I would actually bet on it.

You use phrases like "dance with the devil" and try to insinuate that I am somehow doing something innapropriate when the actuality is far from that. I work hard to protect our content and I have spent more time and money fighting for the rights of content producers in this industry than most, probably including you. The tubes owners we have worked with have been very proactive making sure that they are only working with legit material. I suppose you have some sort of inside information to the contrary? Share it then, or are you just content to just make accusations based on suppositions of entirely circumstantial evidence? That doesn't seem very ethical to me.