Sony to blame tube sites too?

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

if you think it doesnt effect things and think its not training a whole generation that paying for recorded entertainment is dumb.You are really kidding yourself.

The problem is old schoolers like status quo. Newspapers HATED the invention of radio.

Somehow, somewhere, someone will eventually solve the equation, and they're going to be insanely wealthy. The equation is the balance of speed, convenience, price and accessibility that allows the users to get what they want and have the producers still make a reasonable profit.

I do agree that things like tube sites impede progress on this. If a user can get something that is what they want or close to it, very easily for free, then why look anywhere else? But why do tubes exist? Because someone is making money off of them.

So let's peel that onion back a bit further.

For a tube site to be profitable, it means someone is willing to pay enough for those eyeballs to cover the bandwidth and then some. Well, for someone to be willing to pay for it, that means they have a way of convincing those users who are seeing a ton of free content that they have something that is desirable enough to make them pause their free viewing and reach in their wallet and pull out their card.

Think about that one for a bit...

[gonzo]

Tony...Napster did that all by themselves with the music business. Wasnt any tube at the time.

And food for thought is that pornotube is now a couple of years old.

This business is built on someone forgetting to cancel a membership.
Maybe the key here is actually convincing the user that you have a product that is so good they will buy and return to buy again later?

Who says the equation already hasnt been solved?

[tony404]

when you figure probably 50 percent maybe more of tube site viewers arent old enough to own a credit card it makes your point pretty moot. When ibill went under we canceled 330 members in one day. We were back to the number in two months So if it was full of forgotten people we wouldnt of came close to that number. The recurring model was not created by adult and its not going anywhere. Porn had a huge explosion when all you had to decide was the box cover. I give the music industry credit they aren't short sighted vultures, you dont see them advertising on bit torrents or p2p sites.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

when you figure probably 50 percent maybe more of tube site viewers arent old enough to own a credit card it makes your point pretty moot. When ibill went under we canceled 330 members in one day. We were back to the number in two months So if it was full of forgotten people we wouldnt of came close to that number. The recurring model was not created by adult and its not going anywhere. Porn had a huge explosion when all you had to decide was the box cover. I give the music industry credit they aren't short sighted vultures, you dont see them advertising on bit torrents or p2p sites.

Unfortunately guys like you, Danny and rhetorical are the exception not the rule. I would say that pretty much the entire "amateur" niche is an exception because the people who surf those sites for the most part know what they're looking for and can smell a real girl involved in the running of a site versus a faux site from a mile away. Same is true of niche's like rhetorical works, you cant fake that, you've gotta love it a little yourself and know your audience and provide the content they want.

That community treats their user base as a customer, if not a community, and gives them something they cant easily find for a fair price.

Novel concept huh?

So long as the rest of the industry doesn't fuck it up to the point that no one can get credit card processing, there will always be a comfortable living out there in these markets for the people willing to play it honest and do a little work.

But again, exception, not the rule. The majority of what's out there are cookie cutter sites that exist to do nothing but milk the ever loving crap out of any credit card that someone is naive enough to give them. Bury it with cross sales and recur it on every site until they finally discover it, and then hope they are too embarassed or lazy to charge it back.

THAT behavior drives people to tube sites.

It would be a great business model for someone to do industry research with surveys and stuff to sell to those who care and the press. I would bet anything if we had the data there's a fair amount of people who have paid for the porn in the past and would be willing to pay for it again, but now get their spank on via tube sites because they fear the hassle of having to cancel a credit card and dispute $200+ worth of charges again.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

when you figure probably 50 percent maybe more of tube site viewers arent old enough to own a credit card it makes your point pretty moot. When ibill went under we canceled 330 members in one day. We were back to the number in two months So if it was full of forgotten people we wouldnt of came close to that number. The recurring model was not created by adult and its not going anywhere. Porn had a huge explosion when all you had to decide was the box cover. I give the music industry credit they aren't short sighted vultures, you dont see them advertising on bit torrents or p2p sites.

I doubt you could keep a 17 year old boy away from porn online even if it were locked in the electronic equivalent of fort knox.

Any source of free porn is going to have those guys. And they have the time on their hands and the desire IN their hands to invest whatever time and effort is needed to get to porn. Teenage boys are always going to have some way of trading porn no matter what the media is. You cant stop it.

More importantly, those guys cannot buy porn anyway, so you basically do your due diligence and then leave them alone. There's no profit in fighting them. Just make sure you dont make it easy for them and land in court some day. And with liberals back in charge in washington, safe bet there's not going to be legislative help anytime soon. That's good for us in the long run.

Now you hit a key thing though by saying the music industry doesn't advertise on p2p, etc. Adult industry by and large is greedy to the point of being moronic.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by tony404

I give the music industry credit they aren't short sighted vultures, you dont see them advertising on bit torrents or p2p sites.

Uh....

They aren't advertising on BT or P2P, they're suing and prosecuting] them.

The music industry is even more shortsighted than the porn industry, because they don't even have enough sense to realize that they created this whole "us versus them" mentality, where "them" is organized content providers and "us" is anyone who doesn't want to pay for high quality content....

Litigation just increases the hate. Give someone a reason (other than the barrel of a gun) to pay, and they'll pay.

[softball]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Uh....

They aren't advertising on BT or P2P, they're suing and prosecuting] them.

The music industry is even more shortsighted than the porn industry, because they don't even have enough sense to realize that they created this whole "us versus them" mentality, where "them" is organized content providers and "us" is anyone who doesn't want to pay for high quality content....

Litigation just increases the hate. Give someone a reason (other than the barrel of a gun) to pay, and they'll pay.

Did I miss something here? "They" didn't create the us versus them mentality. Like it or not, "they" created, paid for and marketed a legal product. "They" didn't steal anything. And "us" aren't people who don't want to pay for high quaility content. Us are thieves. Or is that "we".
I always thought it was crystal clear who was on the wrong side of this issue and when I see the waters being muddied, alarm bells wring. This sounds awfully like pretzel logic.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Did I miss something here? "They" didn't create the us versus them mentality. Like it or not, "they" created, paid for and marketed a legal product. "They" didn't steal anything. And "us" aren't people who don't want to pay for high quaility content. Us are thieves. Or is that "we".
I always thought it was crystal clear who was on the wrong side of this issue and when I see the waters being muddied, alarm bells wring. This sounds awfully like pretzel logic.

I reckon you don't recall the history of the music industry's positions regarding "piracy".

The record labels fought tooth and nail against the advent of cassette tapes, because they said "no one will buy our records if every Tom, Dick, and Harry can copy them off of friends"

Suddenly, they realized that the cassette was a highly degradable format, and releasing music on it was a sure vehicle to getting not only first-time sales, but repeat sales of the same music, over and over again as the tapes went to crap.

The advent of CD spelled the end of LP's because of the music industry marketing hype - "they're indestructable! And they sound better than any other format!" (both of which were abject lies)

Then along came recordable CD's - and man, was there ever hissing and spitting coming out of Sony, Capitol, Geffen, and the rest. "Perfect Digital copies will kill the industry" - and they fought tooth and nail against the producers of writable media, and finally extracted a settlement that artificially drove the price of that media up as a pre-emptive "royalty" for using it to do things like back up your own music collection. Extra fun for indie bands like the one I was in at the time, because the cost of the blank CD's killed most of our profit margin on producing our own discs, because we didn't have the budget to meet the minimums all the reproduction houses wanted back then (1999) - so we got to pay major labels a fee to sell our own damned music.

Then came Napster. Why was Napster such a huge hit? Because, particularly at that time, the industry was cranking out sorry album after sorry album with one good song and a bunch of filler, and selling it for ever-higher prices (this was when CD's were around $16 at most places, prior to the apex of $20 more recently) and people were sick of getting soaked for $16 for one song. This gave people a chance to listen to a few other songs on the album and decide if it was worth buying.

Here's the comedy:

If the record industry had brought a for-pay a la carte download service back then, they wouldn't be chasing down every tom, dick, and harry now, because back then, Napster, Grokster, and all the other P2P free services were rife with spyware, distributed viruses, and all manner of other issues, and people would have gladly paid for the convenience of not dealing with that shit.

Instead, the industry begins the litigation-mania, right at a time when the American public has little tolerance for high-profile litigation.

And what's worse is, they come after the most bizarre targets. I don't reckon you recall the grandmother who got sued by the RIAA for something in the neighborhood of $165,000 because she had MP3's on her computer that her grandson had downloaded...

That's what I mean about them creating the "us vs. them" mentality. Heavy handed, litigious, and indiscrete. Instead of adapting to new technology, the music industry has fought it, all the way down the line.

When the Harry Fox agency opened their online license shop, it was the smartest move they ever made, because prior to that, people who wanted to "cover" songs had no clue where to go to get that permission. Now, it's $40 to get your license (as long as you don't sell more than 500 copies) and you're nice and legal.

No different with music distribution. Instead of suing everybody, they could have nipped it all in the bud by opening an iTunes long ago.

I'm not saying the pirates are right, I'm just saying the music industry has historically treated their customers like thieves, long before the internet existed....

[softball]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

I reckon you don't recall the history of the music industry's positions regarding "piracy".

The record labels fought tooth and nail against the advent of cassette tapes, because they said "no one will buy our records if every Tom, Dick, and Harry can copy them off of friends"

Suddenly, they realized that the cassette was a highly degradable format, and releasing music on it was a sure vehicle to getting not only first-time sales, but repeat sales of the same music, over and over again as the tapes went to crap.

The advent of CD spelled the end of LP's because of the music industry marketing hype - "they're indestructable! And they sound better than any other format!" (both of which were abject lies)

Then along came recordable CD's - and man, was there ever hissing and spitting coming out of Sony, Capitol, Geffen, and the rest. "Perfect Digital copies will kill the industry" - and they fought tooth and nail against the producers of writable media, and finally extracted a settlement that artificially drove the price of that media up as a pre-emptive "royalty" for using it to do things like back up your own music collection. Extra fun for indie bands like the one I was in at the time, because the cost of the blank CD's killed most of our profit margin on producing our own discs, because we didn't have the budget to meet the minimums all the reproduction houses wanted back then (1999) - so we got to pay major labels a fee to sell our own damned music.

Then came Napster. Why was Napster such a huge hit? Because, particularly at that time, the industry was cranking out sorry album after sorry album with one good song and a bunch of filler, and selling it for ever-higher prices (this was when CD's were around $16 at most places, prior to the apex of $20 more recently) and people were sick of getting soaked for $16 for one song. This gave people a chance to listen to a few other songs on the album and decide if it was worth buying.

Here's the comedy:

If the record industry had brought a for-pay a la carte download service back then, they wouldn't be chasing down every tom, dick, and harry now, because back then, Napster, Grokster, and all the other P2P free services were rife with spyware, distributed viruses, and all manner of other issues, and people would have gladly paid for the convenience of not dealing with that shit.

Instead, the industry begins the litigation-mania, right at a time when the American public has little tolerance for high-profile litigation.

And what's worse is, they come after the most bizarre targets. I don't reckon you recall the grandmother who got sued by the RIAA for something in the neighborhood of $165,000 because she had MP3's on her computer that her grandson had downloaded...

That's what I mean about them creating the "us vs. them" mentality. Heavy handed, litigious, and indiscrete. Instead of adapting to new technology, the music industry has fought it, all the way down the line.

When the Harry Fox agency opened their online license shop, it was the smartest move they ever made, because prior to that, people who wanted to "cover" songs had no clue where to go to get that permission. Now, it's $40 to get your license (as long as you don't sell more than 500 copies) and you're nice and legal.

No different with music distribution. Instead of suing everybody, they could have nipped it all in the bud by opening an iTunes long ago.

I'm not saying the pirates are right, I'm just saying the music industry has historically treated their customers like thieves, long before the internet existed....

I still gotta disagree. Whether you like it or not, copyright theft is still copyright theft. It seems you don't like the way the music business works. Hell I never liked the way the Film and TV business worked and I made my living out of it. The record industry and the "indie" bands have been at war for years. Most of the indie bands were and are kinda shitty with zero commercial potential outside of their garage and a few groupies who believed in their "art". The few that understood business and were good did and will do well. This is a chicken and egg situation that will never be resolved. David and Goliath. You pick the winner.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

I'm not saying the pirates are right, I'm just saying the music industry has historically treated their customers like thieves, long before the internet existed....

There is one part of history that you are missing, something really important that has changed everything:

The feeling of entitlement that younger people have towards music, the feeling that music should be "free".

It has taken an internet "generation" to go from Napster to web2.0, and in that time the systems of beliefs have changed dramatically. There are a significant number of people out there that think that anything that can be digitized should be free because with P2P and other means, they can distribute it for free, so why pay anything?

So yes, Itunes does good business, but it is a drop in the bucket. The most popular numbers I see kicked around says that 19 our of 20 copies of each song out there are pirated. That leaves a much slimmer business for the music world. When it comes to net sales (including Itunes) the record industry is taking in similar amounts of money today that it was in 1997, while inflation and whatnot has lowered the relative value of that income by nearly 40%. There is very little chance of an upside for the music industry any time soon.

Web2.0 is the land of the free. Everything is stolen, borrowed, hijacked, pirated, copied, virally spread and given away by everyone to everyone. Remember, price and value, while not always directly linked, are attached to each other with an elastic. When the price moves significantly lower, it drags down the value. At this point, music has no real market price, and very little value. It is very hard to re-create price when there is no more value.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

The problem is old schoolers like status quo. Newspapers HATED the invention of radio.

Somehow, somewhere, someone will eventually solve the equation, and they're going to be insanely wealthy. The equation is the balance of speed, convenience, price and accessibility that allows the users to get what they want and have the producers still make a reasonable profit.

I do agree that things like tube sites impede progress on this. If a user can get something that is what they want or close to it, very easily for free, then why look anywhere else? But why do tubes exist? Because someone is making money off of them.

So let's peel that onion back a bit further.

For a tube site to be profitable, it means someone is willing to pay enough for those eyeballs to cover the bandwidth and then some. Well, for someone to be willing to pay for it, that means they have a way of convincing those users who are seeing a ton of free content that they have something that is desirable enough to make them pause their free viewing and reach in their wallet and pull out their card.

Think about that one for a bit...

They make money because they arent paying for content for the most part. what a big surprise.thats not a hot business model.
You ever think say governments start to ban porn off the net because everyone in desperation decides giving it all away is the way to go. porn was never meant to be free, people dont like vice stuck in their faces. business principles dont change. Wasnt that learned in 2000 ads were going to pay for everything online?

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by tony404

They make money because they arent paying for content for the most part. what a big surprise.thats not a hot business model.
You ever think say governments start to ban porn off the net because everyone in desperation decides giving it all away is the way to go. porn was never meant to be free, people dont like vice stuck in their faces. business principles dont change. Wasnt that learned in 2000 ads were going to pay for everything online?

So riddle me this... what event do you think it would or will take to fix what is basically a broken business model and economy that exists in adult?

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

So riddle me this... what event do you think it would or will take to fix what is basically a broken business model and economy that exists in adult?

A proprietary product.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

[Radicalsights]

Can I have something for free?