OT it looks like two outlets in one of my rooms arent grounded

[tony404]

I changed ancient two outlet to six outlet attachments. I replace the old ones with belkin surge protector ones. Only one green light came on which means the outlets arent grounded. How big of a deal is that?

[griffin8r]

It's a big deal if you're intending to connect sensitive equipment to them.

As to how expensive it is to fix? Shouldn't be that bad. Electrician kills power to that room, pulls the outlets out of the wall, ties 10-2 to the old 10-1 wire, pulls it through to the fuse box (hopefully it wasn't stapled to the wall studs) and wires it up. He puts in new outlets on the other end and bam, he's done. For 6 outlets, depending on situation variables, you're looking at a day or two worth of work.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

It's a big deal if you're intending to connect sensitive equipment to them.

As to how expensive it is to fix? Shouldn't be that bad. Electrician kills power to that room, pulls the outlets out of the wall, ties 10-2 to the old 10-1 wire, pulls it through to the fuse box (hopefully it wasn't stapled to the wall studs) and wires it up. He puts in new outlets on the other end and bam, he's done. For 6 outlets, depending on situation variables, you're looking at a day or two worth of work.

10-2?
What are you planning on powering there? An electric dryer?
#10 wire-30 amps
#12 wire-20 amps
#14 wire-15 amps.....

And he probably already has 12-2.

No ground is bad. But not the end of the world. Unless you are coming from a sub-panel, the neutral (white) in the circuit is tied to the ground in the panel. Without a ground, you don't have a secondary path to ground to shunt naughty power surges that overload the capacitor in your power strip.

Add a level of protection by using a stand-by power supply/backup battery.
Let it isolate your equipment from the wall. Not perfect, but one step closer to protection. Not so much from losing power, but more importantly from isolating the power going directly to your equipment.

But if you got the bucks, have them run you a new line.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

10-2?
What are you planning on powering there? An electric dryer?
#10 wire-30 amps
#12 wire-20 amps
#14 wire-15 amps.....

Uh, 10-2 is a great choice when you're running every outlet in a room off one circuit.

And for the negligible difference in cost, it's better to over-wire than under.

And he probably already has 12-2.

Depends on how old the wiring is.

No ground is bad. But not the end of the world. Unless you are coming from a sub-panel, the neutral (white) in the circuit is tied to the ground in the panel. Without a ground, you don't have a secondary path to ground to shunt naughty power surges that overload the capacitor in your power strip.

Add a level of protection by using a stand-by power supply/backup battery.
Let it isolate your equipment from the wall. Not perfect, but one step closer to protection. Not so much from losing power, but more importantly from isolating the power going directly to your equipment.

You do realize that a UPS system will still be vulnerable and is likely to blow on an ungrounded supply line? Using a UPS as a solution here is throwing away money, IMNSHO.

But if you got the bucks, have them run you a new line.

Frankly, it's worth running the new line anyway.By the time you get done replacing 4-5 UPS's and/or surge suppressors, you'll be sick of the aggravation and you'll be out all that extra money, and still won't have clean power.

With no ground, even the tiniest fluctuations become as bad as major electrical storms.

Pay now, or pay later....

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Uh, 10-2 is a great choice when you're running every outlet in a room off one circuit.

And for the negligible difference in cost, it's better to over-wire than under.

Depends on how old the wiring is.

You do realize that a UPS system will still be vulnerable and is likely to blow on an ungrounded supply line? Using a UPS as a solution here is throwing away money, IMNSHO.

Frankly, it's worth running the new line anyway.By the time you get done replacing 4-5 UPS's and/or surge suppressors, you'll be sick of the aggravation and you'll be out all that extra money, and still won't have clean power.

With no ground, even the tiniest fluctuations become as bad as major electrical storms.

Pay now, or pay later....

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?


A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

And even 1-20 amp line will run an awful lot of computer equipment......

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?


A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

And even 1-20 amp line will run an awful lot of computer equipment......

The only thing using juice in this room are lights and flashes now and then.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I reckon we may as well argue about this as anything else.....
:-)

While you're running that 10-2?
What's the plan? 20 amp breaker? 30 amp breaker?
What about the outlets themselves?
Planning on passing an inspection at any point?
Or heavens forbid you have a fire, and the fire inspector, insurance adjuster sees a recent change, with a 30 amp breaker, and 15/20 amp outlets that melted and caused the fire?

Well, I'm not much for arguing about petty stuff, but...

1) No reason to go over 15 amps on the breaker. We're not running industrial equipment here...

2) The outlets themselves? I'd use 15's with internal breakers. Won't have to worry about a fire if the plug itself won't overload.

A proper, isolating UPS will SAVE your PC by isolating the power from the line, and adding/subtracting to give an even 115VAC at all times.
It's the fluctuations that cause the problems....not the redundant ground.
The ground is useless, unless you lose the neutral. Sure, a proper "surge protector" may need to shunt some extra voltage spike to ground, but you're talking about trusting your equipment to a 20 cent capacitor?

No, a proper line conditioning UPS is BY FAR your best choice here.
Not about the battery backup....just about balancing the line.

You missed my entire point. Those UPS's still have 20 cent capacitors in them that blow when they've reached a surge load limit. Operating one on an ungrounded (which is what the OP stated) outlet will hasten its demise. Of course it'll protect your equipment, but you'll be buying new ones every six months because you still have no neutral on your circuit.

[Buckwheat]

Giv'em hell Merlin!

[EmporerEJ]

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[griffin8r]

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

Well, I said a long time ago we were WAY past the original point of the conversation.
To sum up, any fool that puts faith in a power strip of ANY kind, for ANY reason, (Other than adding extra "Holes") is just fooling themselves.

I would re-wire (With proper size wire) AND use a UPS with isolation.
(Sort of the condom and spermicide approach)

I personally have a 4KV power supply with a z-80 computer in it to filter the power.
Picked it up years ago at a GSA Auction in Baltimore.
Cost the taxpayers in the $27K range, my cost: $22. (And new batteries since)

Remember the GSA government building in the Travolta law movie, "Civil Action?"
The one at the end where the files got stacked? I could SWEAR that was the same damn GSA warehouse. I remember those cool columns.

[griffin8r]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

I would re-wire (With proper size wire) AND use a UPS with isolation.
(Sort of the condom and spermicide approach)

So we do agree on the principle - that UPS on an ungrounded line is really a bad idea, but that re-wiring the line is a good one, and supporting that with the added protection of UPS (although I actually prefer a power conditioner with voltage regulation and series-mode surge suppression, but then I'm a muso, and those are the types of things we musos use...)

The rest, semantics. I haven't worked in construction since my back went to shit and I had to go under the knife back in 2002, so my faulty memory of electrical theory isn't a huge ish, other than me looking stupid occasionally.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by griffin8r

Well, apparently I'm failing to remember those classes, and that's fine, I'll concede.

You're still not addressing the only point I tried to make in this thread - that MOV-based surge suppression on an ungrounded line is doomed to fail repeatedly - which spells doom for your UPS system, and a much higher aggregate cost over actually having a professional rewire the plug with a ground in the first place.

Here's how you get back up to speed, quick and dirty.
Get the new building code books. There is a series of "cheat sheet" flip charts they sell to professionals that make the new building codes understandable.
This will refresh you, and get you up to compliance.

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Check-Ele...d_bxgy_b_img_b