Prechecked cross sales do surfers have any responsibility whatsoever?

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Short answer is always "yes, the surfer has some responsbility", but the reality is "no, because the programs aren't being entirely straight forward about it".

Most of the prechecked cross sales are checkmarks BELOW the "join" button. For most people, those prechecks are below the fold, you have to scroll to find them, or in many cases you have to scroll far down the page to find cost of each one. None of the sites is straight forward with a total cost number. In other words, nowhere on any page does it say "by clicking enter you agree to $2.95 trial plus $1 trial plus a $1 trial, all of which will rebill within 3 days at $120 per month".

The reality is that this is a variation of what Zango got in shit with the FTC for - disguising the enter link, making the download link far above the terms, and pre-checking boxes to make a positive outcome.

Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?

Nope.

if they had the check boxes ABOVE the submit, and they were NOT CHECKED BY DEFAULT, I wouldn't care. Further, I would want them to appear to be different from the T&C click that most of them have.

You have to both make it clear and make it option default to NO, not default to yes.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Nope.

if they had the check boxes ABOVE the submit, and they were NOT CHECKED BY DEFAULT, I wouldn't care. Further, I would want them to appear to be different from the T&C click that most of them have.

You have to both make it clear and make it option default to NO, not default to yes.

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

I agree with Alex on this. When it involves a financial transaction it should be opt in, not opt out.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

There are two points here, one short, one long, so bear with me:

The short one: Quite simply, this isn't what they came to buy, it is an extra, and these outside sites should be properly investigated by the surfer before they buy them. most sites don't offer links to allow you to check the sites, they don't disclose that it is another company, etc. Pre-checking the boxes is like pre-checking the "I am 18" box - it is laughable, won't hold up in court, and certainly isn't the right way to do it.

The longer one: The sales pitch. Many of these sites involved are pushing price points, $2.95 3 day trials, $1 trials, Only $29.99 per month. They don't asterix it. Combined with the prechecked cross sales, these things are blatant lies. The only way you can get a $1 trial from some sites is (a) uncheck all the boxes on the form, (b) make sure you are only signing up for one site, and (c) don't do too much with your membership or it gets converted early. Failure to do so doesn't just cost you $1 or $29.99, but $124. If you can't see where this is wrong, you need to get your moral compass re-aligned, it's pointing up your butt!

Seriously the sales pitch and T&C here are key. The disclosure of charges isn't clear, often pushed to the bottom of the page, as asterix text in small letters, and have nothing to do with the offered price of the site. When I hit the join page, I expect it to be the price that was offered, not some other price.

Example: Godaddy (many don't like them) when you guy a domain they offer you up about 101 other things to go with your domain. NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PRE-CHECKED, NOT EVEN THE FREE STUFF.

This is super short term gain for long term fucking of the business. If Nick@Ilynx was around, he would probably be all over this with 5 cross sales on his join pages!

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

There are two points here, one short, one long, so bear with me:

The short one: Quite simply, this isn't what they came to buy, it is an extra, and these outside sites should be properly investigated by the surfer before they buy them. most sites don't offer links to allow you to check the sites, they don't disclose that it is another company, etc. Pre-checking the boxes is like pre-checking the "I am 18" box - it is laughable, won't hold up in court, and certainly isn't the right way to do it.!

If disclosed in the terms and conditions and in an obvious spot I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

The longer one: The sales pitch. Many of these sites involved are pushing price points, $2.95 3 day trials, $1 trials, Only $29.99 per month. They don't asterix it. Combined with the prechecked cross sales, these things are blatant lies. The only way you can get a $1 trial from some sites is (a) uncheck all the boxes on the form, (b) make sure you are only signing up for one site, and (c) don't do too much with your membership or it gets converted early. Failure to do so doesn't just cost you $1 or $29.99, but $124. If you can't see where this is wrong, you need to get your moral compass re-aligned, it's pointing up your butt!

They were pitched on the $1 trial, $2.95 3 days or whatever but they are given a choice to stick with it or not. No one is holding a gun to their head and saying. "you gotta take these other offers" or you're not getting in. If they can see and read and they are above the join button then they absolutely have the capability to make their own choice on how to proceed. I won't say whetehr I agree or not but either way it was way too much agreement here between everybody to be a decent discussion so I feel I must chime in and not let everybody be too comfortable in their chumminess....

Seriously the sales pitch and T&C here are key. The disclosure of charges isn't clear, often pushed to the bottom of the page, as asterix text in small letters, and have nothing to do with the offered price of the site. When I hit the join page, I expect it to be the price that was offered, not some other price.

I will say I agree that they should be above the join button. On that aspect I will agree.

Example: Godaddy (many don't like them) when you guy a domain they offer you up about 101 other things to go with your domain. NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PRE-CHECKED, NOT EVEN THE FREE STUFF.!

I've seen plenty of prechecked stuff, whether it be free, free trial, or trial, on the non-adult side.

This is super short term gain for long term fucking of the business. If Nick@Ilynx was around, he would probably be all over this with 5 cross sales on his join pages!

He always treated me right when we did business together. He was always fair and prompt in our business dealings.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

He always treated me right when we did business together. He was always fair and prompt in our business dealings.

I can agree with that with one major exception for about 90 days. But it ended up ok anyhow.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

If disclosed in the terms and conditions and in an obvious spot I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

They were pitched on the $1 trial, $2.95 3 days or whatever but they are given a choice to stick with it or not. No one is holding a gun to their head and saying. "you gotta take these other offers" or you're not getting in. If they can see and read and they are above the join button then they absolutely have the capability to make their own choice on how to proceed. I won't say whetehr I agree or not but either way it was way too much agreement here between everybody to be a decent discussion so I feel I must chime in and not let everybody be too comfortable in their chumminess....

Here's a scenerio for you. You go in to buy a new car. The lease rate is $299. per month. When you get the contract to sign, there are a couple of little boxes at the bottom already checked for you by the computer that adds in "rust proofing" "simonized interior" and "upgraded hubcaps". On the back inside the terms (which runs the full size of the form) there is disclosure (written out as total cost for rust proofing is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five dollars). So when the first monthly payment is due, you are suddently paying $389, because all those extra pre-checks have to get paid for during the lease term.

I bet you would be pissed off, and you would say it is wrong that they pre-checked the boxes without explaining to you. They will say "it's on the contract you signed". Legally, they may be just barely in the right, but you know you will never do business with them again.

There is too much agreement here because most of the people posting here these days are pretty level headed and want to have a business to do again tomorrow. Many of the people here have been around since the very first scams, and we have a pretty good feeling where this train wreck is going.

I have seen three types of people disagreeing about this: Bros / standup guys / top notch playahs, suckups who are dependant on programs to pay their bills, and newer people enjoying the big payouts not realizing the implications. Outside of that, I have seen little agreement with this concept.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Here's a scenerio for you. You go in to buy a new car. The lease rate is $299. per month. When you get the contract to sign, there are a couple of little boxes at the bottom already checked for you by the computer that adds in "rust proofing" "simonized interior" and "upgraded hubcaps". On the back inside the terms (which runs the full size of the form) there is disclosure (written out as total cost for rust proofing is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five dollars). So when the first monthly payment is due, you are suddently paying $389, because all those extra pre-checks have to get paid for during the lease term.

I bet you would be pissed off, and you would say it is wrong that they pre-checked the boxes without explaining to you. They will say "it's on the contract you signed". Legally, they may be just barely in the right, but you know you will never do business with them again.

There is too much agreement here because most of the people posting here these days are pretty level headed and want to have a business to do again tomorrow. Many of the people here have been around since the very first scams, and we have a pretty good feeling where this train wreck is going.

I have seen three types of people disagreeing about this: Bros / standup guys / top notch playahs, suckups who are dependant on programs to pay their bills, and newer people enjoying the big payouts not realizing the implications. Outside of that, I have seen little agreement with this concept.

You know who I am far more pissed at in that scenario? Myself for being dumb enough to not fully understand what I was agreeing to before signing on the dotted line. ESPECIALLY on a contract that ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES a long term committment. Everything was where I could take the time to read it. If I didn't take the time to go over the contract and know what it meant to sign it it's MY responibility. I've already said I think the cross sells should be easy to see above the join button so they know what they are agreeing to.

[clickyoucutie]

Originally Posted by TheEnforcer

Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?

this sounds better than some of the prechecked cross sales I've seen