Do you want Gonzo to post your real name?

[Hammer]

Now how hard was that instead of telling everyone to go buy a book to prove something?

[Mediaguy]

"The same happens for each subsequent step, until finally, the router nearest the destination sends to the destination using its data link (MAC) address."

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

"The same happens for each subsequent step, until finally, the router nearest the destination sends to the destination using its data link (MAC) address."

Key concept: THE SAME . . . therefore, as I have stated, all that would need to be done is to trace back through the entire sequence, one hop at a time, sniffing the packets to get that hop's sender MAC address, until one arrives at the originating devices.

Just to break it down for you more, MORON, here is
(since I can tell you can't read properly, or you would have seen it, it has been there all along HAHAHAHAHA)
a post in the first thread where this came up:

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showp...&postcount=121

which has THIS LINK:

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2001...SD_Basics.html

which is not a bad piece at all . . . I prefer textbooks myself, but that it right . . . .

Last paragraph on page 1 (yes, at the bottom, there ya GO, champ) has a bit of info you might be interested in reading . . .

Ok, now go on and say that both the author of the textbook and the author of the article are wrong . . . go on . . . you fucking drooling mongoloid imbecile . . . hard to believe you have the nerve to keep going, to keep making an ass out of yourself, in spite of having facts in your face . . . a good, persistent liar AND parasite . . .

[2MuchMark]

First it will be useful to define what MAC addresses are and how they
are normally used.

Definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
"Media Access Control address (MAC address) is a unique identifier attached to most forms of networking equipment." Normally a twelve digit hexadecimal number, like: 00-08-74-4C-7F-1D

How it is used:
It's most common use is in the "data link" layer of the OSI model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

When a computer on a network has an IP address it needs to contact it sends out an ARP request to all machines on its network segment (using the broadcast address) and receives an answer from the owner of that address with its mac address. It then stores this in an arp table for later reference. The mac address is then used to send data directly to that computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address...ution_Protocol

You can view the arp table on a windows XP machine by typing "arp -a" from a command prompt. You can even manipulate the table, though this is not recommended. http://www.mytechsupport.ca/content/view/83/306/

What you will see in your arp table are IP addresses that are on your local network. You will not see any entries for computer beyond your closest router. The reason for this is simple; your computer doesn't care about anythign past that.

All a computer needs to know is how to get to the next router on the way to its final destination (next hop). Once your PC has the mac address of your closest router and hands the data off to it, then it is that next router's job to have the mac address of the next router in line and so on. Each router is only going to keep arp tables with mac addresses of devices that are on the same subnets as they are on.

Remember the way they usually acquire mac addresses is using a broadcast. This will only reach as far as the next router. Routers will not pass on this information. If they did the whole Internet would come to a screeching halt because there would be so many broadcasts that the real data would be choked out. They only need to know how to get to the next hop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_address

In short, as long as your router is seperated from this server that you are connecting to by at least one other router (which I'm sure that you are) they would not have your mac address in their arp tables. You can see just how many routers are between you by doing a "trace router".
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/162326/EN-US/

First you will see your routers Ip address that is local to your computer, then you will see the address of your local IPS's router, then there will most likely be several other router before finally making to the server you are connecting to.

Each time the data passes through a router the portion of that data that contains the last mac address is pulled out and the current router's is put in. This allows the next router to respond without an arp request to the previous router.

This is a similar discussion:
http://content.ix2.net/arc/t-4333.html
"There is no way to determine the mac address of your computer, once the packets have passed through a router. The mac address is used only on a local network and as a packet leaves your local network, the mac address is
replaced by the mac address of the router. This happens at every router along the route between you and any other site."

Since your computer has an arp table that contains your routers LAN side mac address it is possible that they could send that in the same way they could 2) 3) and 4). But your router is going to have a different mac address for it WAN side, which is the part that you would care about. Your computer will not have the WAN side mac address in its arp table because it is on the "other side" of your router.

All that to say: They only way they could get your router's WAN-side mac address would be have access to a device on your local ISP's network on the same subnet as your router. This is highly improbable. (This all came from http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=765054) by the way).

Anyway,

It appears that I owe MoeTheMan, an apology (Sort of)!

I had said that it was Impossible to detect the MAC address of a machine via the Internet (without a client).
I was RIGHT.

I also said that TCP/IP did not contain Mac address information.
I was WRONG.

MoeTheMan said TCP/IP DID contact Mac information.
He was RIGHT.

However, only the MAC Address information of each hop from one point to the next is known between the devices, but thats it. The original machine does not know the destination's mac address (unless it is 1 hop away such as from a PC to a router), and the destination does not know the original's mac address.

(If all of this info were contained in TCP/IP, the world would explode. So GREG was right!)

MoeTheMan: I will extend a sincere apology to you if you would do the same to me (for at least calling me names). If you don't want to, then thats ok. My apology is out there. For my part, I made a mistake.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

This is a similar discussion:
http://content.ix2.net/arc/t-4333.html
"There is no way to determine the mac address of your computer, once the packets have passed through a router. The mac address is used only on a local network and as a packet leaves your local network, the mac address is replaced by the mac address of the router. This happens at every router along the route between you and any other site."

That is why I said step back through each "hop". The TCP packets at each hop contain the MAC address of BOTH the SENDER and THE RECEIVER. TO break it down more: you would sniff the addy of the sender in THAT LAST hop. Ok. Then, you trace to the next hop, and sniff there, and do the same, and repeat, until you finally arrive at the originating device . . . as I stated, it is conceptually straightforward.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Since your computer has an arp table that contains your routers LAN side mac address it is possible that they could send that in the same way they could 2) 3) and 4). But your router is going to have a different mac address for it WAN side, which is the part that you would care about. Your computer will not have the WAN side mac address in its arp table because it is on the "other side" of your router.

All that to say: They only way they could get your router's WAN-side mac address would be have access to a device on your local ISP's network on the same subnet as your router. This is highly improbable. (This all came from http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=765054) by the way).

Improbable if you can't manage to enter . . . and it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY. People do this everyday.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Anyway,

It appears that I owe MoeTheMan, an apology (Sort of)!

I had said that it was Impossible to detect the MAC address of a machine via the Internet (without a client).
I was RIGHT.

No one, except you, said that could be done. That would amount to detection without a connection. THAT is not possible.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

I also said that TCP/IP did not contain Mac address information.
I was WRONG.

MoeTheMan said TCP/IP DID contact Mac information.
He was RIGHT.

The $100 should go to any charity. I don't care which one, although I prefer:

The WINE project (nothing to do with the drink BTW)
The Free Software Foundation
or the nearest soup kitchen.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

However, only the MAC Address information of each hop from one point to the next is known between the devices, but thats it. The original machine does not know the destination's mac address (unless it is 1 hop away such as from a PC to a router), and the destination does not know the original's mac address.

I WROTE THAT. Mayhaps I did not break it down enough, yet I did write that it would be necessary to sniff MAC addresses at each hop, so as to be able to trace back (by looking at the SENDER addy)

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

(If all of this info were contained in TCP/IP, the world would explode. So GREG was right!)

Funny, he was the only one saying that . . . see point above.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

MoeTheMan: I will extend a sincere apology to you if you would do the same to me (for at least calling me names). If you don't want to, then thats ok. My apology is out there. For my part, I made a mistake.

If I thought you were being sincere and honest, I would reciprocate. But I doubt that, so, no apologies from me. And you engaged in name calling as well . . . so don't act like the victim.

You said you were leaving this thread.

[2MuchMark]

If I thought you were being sincere and honest, I would reciprocate. But I doubt that, so, no apologies from me.

No payout. You said you could obtain my pc's mac address. I bet you couldn't, and you couldn't. I won the bet. Sorry, no donation to the ASACP in your name.

No Apology? No worries. I won't lose any sleep over it.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

No payout. You said you could obtain my pc's mac address. I bet you couldn't, and you couldn't. I won the bet. Sorry, no donation to the ASACP in your name.

No Apology? No worries. I won't lose any sleep over it.

Please post the link to the post where I said I could (and then agreed to) obtain your pc's MAC address.

Do it.

Can it be done? Sure. If I were to break into this server, find your connection, and traceroute it, and sniff the packets at every hop, and mayhaps break into devices along the way, and then break into your LAN . . yet as we know, that would be illegal . . . hell, just breaking into yours, without a notarized letter providing permission, would be asking for it.

[helix]

ahhhh.....So much love in this thread........who is up for a group hug???





anybody?





somebody?





nothing but crickets

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by helix

ahhhh.....So much love in this thread........who is up for a group hug???
anybody?
somebody?
nothing but crickets

HUGZ!!!!!!!!!!!

[helix]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

HUGZ!!!!!!!!!!!

lol...... right back at ya

[Nymph]

Originally Posted by helix

ahhhh.....So much love in this thread........who is up for a group hug???





anybody?





somebody?





nothing but crickets

Count me in

[helix]

Originally Posted by Nymph

Count me in

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Nymph

Count me in

ooo ooo....me too!

[KevinG]

I want the 45 minutes of my life back damnit!

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by moetheman

Key concept: THE SAME . . . therefore, as I have stated, all that would need to be done is to trace back through the entire sequence, one hop at a time, sniffing the packets to get that hop's sender MAC address, until one arrives at the originating devices.

Just to break it down for you more, MORON, here is
(since I can tell you can't read properly, or you would have seen it, it has been there all along HAHAHAHAHA)
a post in the first thread where this came up:

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showp...&postcount=121

which has THIS LINK:

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2001...SD_Basics.html

which is not a bad piece at all . . . I prefer textbooks myself, but that it right . . . .

Last paragraph on page 1 (yes, at the bottom, there ya GO, champ) has a bit of info you might be interested in reading . . .

Ok, now go on and say that both the author of the textbook and the author of the article are wrong . . . go on . . . you fucking drooling mongoloid imbecile . . . hard to believe you have the nerve to keep going, to keep making an ass out of yourself, in spite of having facts in your face . . . a good, persistent liar AND parasite . . .

Moe, they're right of course - since if you read the WHOLE page is describing an experiment within a "home network" demonstrating how to capture your packets within a LAN:

"In my home network, I have a computer named "genisis" with an IP address of 10.0.0.1; it is connected using an Ethernet topology to a computer named "biko" whose IP address is 10.0.0.2."

Note the IP addresses. Check his IP Packet. The entry for IP is "biko" from "ginisis" - or local subnet, which means of course you'll see the last sending device's MAC address. You'll see this whether you're reading the last hop from a router or a compute-to-computer transimission in your LAN.

So they're right, because they're talking about a local network.

YOU are not. You think this is about WAN-side transmission of TCP/IP packets but it is STILL about LANs and subnets.

Did you think I was going to read just the last paragraph out of context and think that everything else available on the matter was wrong?

There's too much thinking of that sort here. You should really yank back on the throttle a little before you start calling people morons and imbeciles. The more of that you do, especially when you're wrong, the more you become those.


oh and ps.: sniffing backwards you will not get the same route, and even if you did your device routing tables contain more than one send destination; these nodes don't remember where they sent what packet or when they sent them; that is simply too much useless data to process.

[bluemoney]

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

Moe, they're right of course - since if you read the WHOLE page is describing an experiment within a "home network" demonstrating how to capture your packets within a LAN:

"In my home network, I have a computer named "genisis" with an IP address of 10.0.0.1; it is connected using an Ethernet topology to a computer named "biko" whose IP address is 10.0.0.2."

Note the IP addresses. Check his IP Packet. The entry for IP is "biko" from "ginisis" - or local subnet, which means of course you'll see the last sending device's MAC address. You'll see this whether you're reading the last hop from a router or a compute-to-computer transimission in your LAN.

So they're right, because they're talking about a local network.

"When your request shows up at the router that connects to The TCP/IP Guide, it can see the http://www.tcpipguide.com server's IP address, but that isn't helpful: it needs to send to server's MAC address.
The identical issue exists even with communication between devices on a LAN."

That last sentence tells us that that what I referred to applies to a WAN AND a LAN.

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

YOU are not. You think this is about WAN-side transmission of TCP/IP packets but it is STILL about LANs and subnets.

Did you think I was going to read just the last paragraph out of context and think that everything else available on the matter was wrong?

That was meant to illustrate the anatomy of a TCP packet.

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

There's too much thinking of that sort here. You should really yank back on the throttle a little before you start calling people morons and imbeciles. The more of that you do, especially when you're wrong, the more you become those.

oh and ps.: sniffing backwards you will not get the same route, and even if you did your device routing tables contain more than one send destination; these nodes don't remember where they sent what packet or when they sent them; that is simply too much useless data to process.

Wrong. Think traceroute, and think packet sniffer, at every hop . . .

If the connection from the originating device were terminated, that would be another matter.

As I said, doing that with software alone (as in automatically, minus a human) would not be infallible every time . . . but with a human, UNLESS one of the devices at one end of one of the hops were VERY secure (and I mean secure as in OpenBSD + firewall hardware + some competent sysadmins + some specialized intrusion detection software) it would be trivial for many folks to do . . . oh, and before you accuse me of claiming I am into cracking, I will repeat: I am not into it . . . not interested . . . I have obtained proper reference material on networking because I am interested in Web Applications . . . and that is all.

What I can't believe is, coming across people who make their living from doing business online, and who not only do not know this stuff, but do not even have access to proper reference material. That amazes me.

[2MuchMark]

ok. thats enough now. no one cares anymore.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

ok. thats enough now. no one cares anymore.

You obviously cared enough to post AGAIN.

Once again, it can be done with software, or with a human.

You were caught posting under another account.

You claimed it was not technologically possible to do so.

That has now been refuted.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Now how hard was that instead of telling everyone to go buy a book to prove something?

All this big MAC talk makes me want to go get a cookie.

[DannyCox]

Thanks for posting that Gonzo, it just backs up what we have been saying all along. Your machine's MAC Address is not sent in the packet and is just used on the LAN for address resolution of the final destination. But what is being discussed only holds true on a Network. For example, if you are on a PC with just a dial-up connection, the MAC Address of your machine doesn't even come into it.

I don't see how moe could get MAC Address transmission in a TCP/IP Packet from any of that text. It is only discussing using the MAC upon receiving a packet.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

Your machine's MAC Address is not sent in the packet and is just used on the LAN for address resolution of the final destination.

Are you retarded man? Seriously. The following refers to the WAN:

"When your request shows up at
the router that connects to The TCP/IP Guide, it can see the http://www.tcpipguide.com
server's IP address, but that isn't helpful: it needs to send to server's MAC address."

Originally Posted by DannyCox

But what is being discussed only holds true on a Network. For example, if you are on a PC with just a dial-up connection, the MAC Address of your machine doesn't even come into it.

"The identical issue exists even with communication between devices on a LAN."

Originally Posted by DannyCox

I don't see how moe could get MAC Address transmission in a TCP/IP Packet from any of that text. It is only discussing using the MAC upon receiving a packet.

Listen, you can't posssibly be THAT dense. READ.

"However, while we can virtually connect devices at layer three, these connections are
really conceptual only.
When you send a request using IP, it is sent one hop at a time, from one physical network to the next. At each of these hops, an actual transmission occurs at the physical and data link layers."

It is the DATA LINK LAYER which contains the MAC address. And it is exactly what I said, that TCP packets ALL contain MAC addresses (sender AND receiver) therefore, all that needs to be done is to backtrack from the server, through every hop, sniffing the packets for the addys, until eventually, you get to the originating device . . . it's actually conceptually straightforward . . . but I can see that you have no clue about any of this. You can probably barely run your Winblows box . . . this is like talking to a 5 year old, I swear . . . .

This is amusing, this thread will be here for a long time, and ALL THE INFO IS THERE, and it all proves my point, while you keep making an ass out of yourself.

It's almost painful to watch you do it.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by gonzo

All this big MAC talk makes me want to go get a cookie.

Makes me want a Big Mac.