Do you want Gonzo to post your real name?

[2MuchMark]

First of all,

GOOD MORNING!!!!

Next,
Moetheman:

Dude, whatever. You're the one who said Mac Address Tracking is everywhere. I'm just asking you in a really polite way, to Teach Me (and everyone else here) how this is possible.

And if you don't know the answer, to kindly show me some links to some resources that would explain MAC Address tracking.

You are the one who is getting completely bent out of shape on all of this, not me. You said something, I asked you to prove it. You didn't. I fully admitted that I'm no networking expert but politely and calmly showed you what I found (and invited true networking experts to tell me if I was right or wrong), and then you went balistic. Score one against the professionalism (or at least professional facade) of the Adult Industry.

I don't know you, but I don't hate you, whoever you are. You hate me without even knowing me, because you have prejudged me. All I did was offer a reply to your post.

I hope everyone reading this has a good, PRODUCTIVE, business day. Cheers!

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

First of all,

GOOD MORNING!!!!

Next,
Moetheman:

Dude, whatever. You're the one who said Mac Address Tracking is everywhere. I'm just asking you in a really polite way, to Teach Me (and everyone else here) how this is possible.

Yawn. No one said it was everywhere. Are you functionally illiterate? You strike me as though you are.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

And if you don't know the answer, to kindly show me some links to some resources that would explain MAC Address tracking.

I am going to be generous to an ignoramus like you, and say this:

You will find it in the LINK section of a TCP packet.

You don't read people's posts do you?

Just gave you a freebie, jackass.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

You are the one who is getting completely bent out of shape on all of this, not me. You said something, I asked you to prove it. You didn't. I fully admitted that I'm no networking expert but politely and calmly showed you what I found (and invited true networking experts to tell me if I was right or wrong), and then you went balistic. Score one against the professionalism (or at least professional facade) of the Adult Industry.

I don't know you, but I don't hate you, whoever you are. You hate me without even knowing me, because you have prejudged me. All I did was offer a reply to your post.

Yeah, keep clinging to saying I am angry about this. YAWN. This is entertaining, watching you resort to every trick in your conman's handbook.

LOL

[gonzo]

I see the disconnect here.

http://www.adult-webcam-faq.com/revi...amnetwork.html

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by moetheman

Yawn. No one said it was everywhere. Are you functionally illiterate? You strike me as though you are.



I am going to be generous to an ignoramus like you, and say this:

You will find it in the LINK section of a TCP packet.

You don't read people's posts do you?

Just gave you a freebie, jackass.



Yeah, keep clinging to saying I am angry about this. YAWN. This is entertaining, watching you resort to every trick in your conman's handbook.

LOL

Moetheman,

I have posted several replies to yours already, with links, with details, with explanations, and with questions.

You on the other hand, of posted nothing useful back. Why bother posting a "Hint" when you can post the link OR the text and shut me up for good?

The answer is, Moetheman, is because you don't know. You have been talking out of your ass the entire time. You have had plenty of chances to prove me wrong and put me in my place.

Let me try this, Moetheman. Tell me please. For 10 points, can you tell me what the difference is, between WAN and LAN?

And for an extra 10 points, can you give me an example of an IP Address that might exist in a WAN, and one that might exist in a LAN?

Once you GOOGLE to get the answers to these 2 basic questions, do some more, and then tell me, tell the world, tell yourself, how MAC Addresses can be broadcast over WAN a protocol (TCP/IP) that does not carry that information.

Until you prove me wrong, you are just all talk, no action.

Trust me, I will apologize to you if I am wrong, but I have asked several people and done some research, and I can't find anything to the contray.

And yeah yeah, I know you hate my guts. I am avoiding the issue, whatever the fuck you say big man. Try not to repeat yourself yet again when you answer me, ok?

I'm waiting.....!!

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

(and by the way, my challenge to you to tell me what my MAC Address is is now almost 24 hours old and you haven't even done that. ) Afraid I'll lie about it? Ok! Let ANYONE here post their IP address and have Mr. KNow it All display their MAC address.

Oh fuck! Even better! Select ANY IP address on the Internet that we ALL can verify with a simple traceroute or ping (not your own, dumbass!). Then tell us how YOU, you fucking GENIUS you, got the MAC address. Then post the instructions so that we can ALL reproduce this fucking magical miracle that you insist exists.

Bring it the fuck on, or Shut it the Fuck up!

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Moetheman,

I have posted several replies to yours already, with links, with details, with explanations, and with questions.

You on the other hand, of posted nothing useful back. Why bother posting a "Hint" when you can post the link OR the text and shut me up for good?

The answer is, Moetheman, is because you don't know. You have been talking out of your ass the entire time. You have had plenty of chances to prove me wrong and put me in my place.

Let me try this, Moetheman. Tell me please. For 10 points, can you tell me what the difference is, between WAN and LAN?

And for an extra 10 points, can you give me an example of an IP Address that might exist in a WAN, and one that might exist in a LAN?

Once you GOOGLE to get the answers to these 2 basic questions, do some more, and then tell me, tell the world, tell yourself, how MAC Addresses can be broadcast over WAN a protocol (TCP/IP) that does not carry that information.

Until you prove me wrong, you are just all talk, no action.

Trust me, I will apologize to you if I am wrong, but I have asked several people and done some research, and I can't find anything to the contray.

And yeah yeah, I know you hate my guts. I am avoiding the issue, whatever the fuck you say big man. Try not to repeat yourself yet again when you answer me, ok?

I'm waiting.....!!

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

(and by the way, my challenge to you to tell me what my MAC Address is is now almost 24 hours old and you haven't even done that. ) Afraid I'll lie about it? Ok! Let ANYONE here post their IP address and have Mr. KNow it All display their MAC address.

Oh fuck! Even better! Select ANY IP address on the Internet that we ALL can verify with a simple traceroute or ping (not your own, dumbass!). Then tell us how YOU, you fucking GENIUS you, got the MAC address. Then post the instructions so that we can ALL reproduce this fucking magical miracle that you insist exists.

Bring it the fuck on, or Shut it the Fuck up!

I done brought it the fuck on, and owned your ass.

If your networking gurus can't figure out how to look inside a TCP packet, they are not worthy of the title.

I posted the answer, the rest is up to you. If you can't obtain the information based on that, you are even dumber than what you have shown yourself to be.

I replied to all your inane imbecilities, and I see what you are doing, another conman trick: keep replying in total disregard of what has been said, so as to "bury" what others have previously stated, for the benefit of future readers of the thread.

Once again, you are assuming that others are as ignorant and dumb as you are.

How weak . . .

Remember, you are my bitch now.

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by moetheman

I done brought it the fuck on, and owned your ass.

If your networking gurus can't figure out how to look inside a TCP packet, they are not worthy of the title.

I posted the answer, the rest is up to you. If you can't obtain the information based on that, you are even dumber than what you have shown yourself

What you say is right about TCP packets within a LAN but NOT on the WAN side, where the packets carry only the MAC address of the closest router.

Originally Posted by moetheman

I replied to all your inane imbecilities, and I see what you are doing, another conman trick: keep replying in total disregard of what has been said, so as to "bury" what others have previously stated, for the benefit of future readers of the thread.

Talk about projection, yet in between all the insults and name calling you have only said you answered... without answering... amazing.

You have really changed your posting style with all this "bitch" and "yo" shit lol since the days when you were out protecting women's honour from perceived verbal attacks.

I guess the gentleman thing was too faggy....

[Sexyteaser]

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

What you say is right about TCP packets within a LAN but NOT on the WAN side, where the packets carry only the MAC address of the closest router.



Talk about projection, yet in between all the insults and name calling you have only said you answered... without answering... amazing.

You have really changed your posting style with all this "bitch" and "yo" shit lol since the days when you were out protecting women's honour from perceived verbal attacks.

I guess the gentleman thing was too faggy....

WAN, BAN, LAN Thank you MAM or you all just still trying to cover your ass for coming on here as "Soundslikebullshit?"

Get a clue we know it's you however do you want some milk with those cookies?

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

WAN, BAN, LAN Thank you MAM or you all just still trying to cover your ass for coming on here as "Soundslikebullshit?"

Get a clue we know it's you however do you want some milk with those cookies?

Shit!

Shellee.... baby... please.... I am SO SORRY.....

I completely forgot that you are an EX MICROSOFT NETWORK ENGINEER GURU AND PERSONAL ADVISOR TO MR. GATES HIMSELF.

Can you perhaps tell us if its possible to obtain a MAC address of a PC without a client or web application running on that target machine?

And if you can't, maybe you can tippy-toe over to Steve Job's house next door and ask him?

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

WAN, BAN, LAN Thank you MAM or you all just still trying to cover your ass for coming on here as "Soundslikebullshit?"

As I recall Shellee, you encouraged a little Troll of yours to log in under a fake name just to lend support to you as you lost another argument and stir shit up for you on a board a few months ago, under the name of "XXXPornGuy"? This is starting to seem like your work all over again. VERY Internesting....

m

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

What you say is right about TCP packets within a LAN but NOT on the WAN side, where the packets carry only the MAC address of the closest router.

No, the packet contains the MAC address of both the sending and receiving computer.

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

Talk about projection, yet in between all the insults and name calling you have only said you answered... without answering... amazing.

Oh, I am sorry I didn't break it down enough for you. But I answered.

Originally Posted by Mediaguy

You have really changed your posting style with all this "bitch" and "yo" shit lol since the days when you were out protecting women's honour from perceived verbal attacks.

I guess the gentleman thing was too faggy....

I have changed my posting style??????

Please elaborate.

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by moetheman

No, the packet contains the MAC address of both the sending and receiving computer.

That's the case only within a local netowrk or a P2P connection.

I did what you said and ran a search. Didn't take long.

TCP/IP packets only need or use your MAC address within a LAN, or on a P2P connection. They keep a full ARP Table on local networks, but those sent out over WAN connections use only the MAC address of the last and next router; they don't need the MAC on your network card and they don't carry the MAC address of your router beyond the next router to destination.

[DannyCox]

Originally Posted by moetheman

[u][i][b]You will find it in the LINK section of a TCP packet.

I'm sorry, but I just went through a search and I can't find anywhere that says what you stated above. Everything I have read so far makes mention that a MAC Address is undiscoverable outside of a Network unless something is being used to actually broadcast it. I don't see anywhere that states a MAC Address is included in a TCP/IP/UDP packet. There is talk of MAC Layering in older network systems, like FDDI and Token Ring, but that is now all obsolete.

I'd love to know more about all this.

[DannyCox]

Originally Posted by moetheman

You will find it in the LINK section of a TCP packet.

NOTE: I posted this on the previous page, but I don't think anyone saw it

I'm sorry, but I just went through a search and I can't find anywhere that says what you stated above. Everything I have read so far makes mention that a MAC Address is undiscoverable outside of a Network unless something is being used to actually broadcast it. I don't see anywhere that states a MAC Address is included in a TCP/IP/UDP packet. There is talk of MAC Layering in older network systems, like FDDI and Token Ring, but that is now all obsolete.

I'd love to know more about all this.

[gonzo]

Happy St Patricks day to yall.

Im getting in touch with my "roots".

[helix]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Happy St Patricks day to yall.

Im getting in touch with my "roots".

Thanks, and a happy one to you as well. I raise one in honor of our heritage. I even used a green theme on my new webcam blog tonight

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Happy St Patricks day to yall.

Im getting in touch with my "roots".

Happy (belated) St. Patrick's to you too Gonzo.

I was like partly raised by a great man of Irish descent on his Father's side, whose last name was Cooper.

I can't understand some of the people on this thread talking smack to ya' . . . from what I have seen, Irishmen can SCRAP

[2MuchMark]

Hello Everyone,

This will be my last post in this thread. I will say what I have to say, and anyone caring to read it, may. Anyone else who still cares to waste their time in this thread can do so, but without me.

As I said much earlier, I am not "soundslikebullshit", and as I already said, I did some asking around on my end but was told by that person that "it was not me". If you care, please review my earlier post on this.

Shellee Hale:
It is extremely unfortunate that you and I continue to snipe at each other like this. It's childish and embarrasing for the both of us. I am sorry that you did not appreciatie our product and the tremendous support everyone of my staff did to support you during the time you were our client. I wish you the best of luck for the future.

MoeTheMan:
You did not prove that TCP/IP data contains Mac Addresses and offered no links to any technology, networking sites, technical data, white papers etc, that prove your point whereas I offered up several.

Furthremore, you could have easily shown anyone here how to obtain your mac address, but you didn't. I offered a donation to ASACP or FSC if you could prove it, but you couldn't. When pushed into a corner, you resorted to name calling.

Moe, this thread is a great opportunity for you. Alot of people here would like to know how to do it if it was possible. If you know how its done, call up your favorite billing company and help them reduce credit card fraud to zero. Sell your solution to websites and they could use it to block any computer from accessing their site.

To everyone else, this thread has turned into a really ugly fight between several people and I am at least partialy responsible for its content. Trust me, it won't happen again. Shellee, Moe, anyone else. Snipe at me or 2Much all you want. We won't be sniping back.

Gonzo, I hope you enjoyed the rise in popularity for this site over the last few days. It won't happen at our expense ever again.

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net
http://www.LiveCamNetwork.com

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Gonzo, I hope you enjoyed the rise in popularity for this site over the last few days. It won't happen at our expense ever again.

Was a small blip. Ive had bigger traffic gains earlier in the year with no drama or pissing. And thats with 3 piss threads combined in one week.

No big gain really.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

MoeTheMan:
You did not prove that TCP/IP data contains Mac Addresses and offered no links to any technology, networking sites, technical data, white papers etc, that prove your point whereas I offered up several.

I don't need to "prove" information (and for free) that is accessible to anyone that wants it. What I made reference to is not AN OPINION (something you obviously did not comprehend) but a VERIFIABLE FACT (we ARE talking about technology. This is not black magic, or liberal arts)
I posted all the information anyone WITH A CLUE could ever need. If you want more information, you can find more the same way I did.
And you offered nothing. Your sidekick brought some facts to the table, yet as I previously mentioned, his assumptions were much too narrow.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Furthremore, you could have easily shown anyone here how to obtain your mac address, but you didn't.

That was not part of the original point I made. YOU made that up. Once again, my point was and is that your claims against having been caught posting under another account by Gonzo owing to it not being technologically possible were false.
I guess you are unable to accept that you are not in control of this discussion. You tried hard, but those tricks don't work with me, Sir.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

I offered a donation to ASACP or FSC if you could prove it, but you couldn't. When pushed into a corner, you resorted to name calling.

Your "offer" was meaningless and besides the point. No one claimed what you state was claimed and subsequently requested proof of. It was obviously an attempt at drawing attention away from the fact that you were caught posting under another account.
Also, it is obvious that you are the one that started talking shit . . . and you know it.

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Moe, this thread is a great opportunity for you. Alot of people here would like to know how to do it if it was possible. If you know how its done, call up your favorite billing company and help them reduce credit card fraud to zero. Sell your solution to websites and they could use it to block any computer from accessing their site.

I am PERFECTLY fine with what I am doing at this time, and am not interested in what you are referring to.

When it comes down to it, I can see that you do not understand the higher level issues in the particular scenario you have made reference to, namely, that billing companies, banks, and other financial institutions and service providers are obviously not TRULY interested (other than typical suit lip service) in solving the problems, if they were, we would not see the BS we see such as the recent major theft of data that was all over the news (and no, don't fucking ask me to post a link to it - it's all over the news). The technology and personnel are CERTAINLY available to prevent such incidents . . .

Now, posting the following link is giving you more respect than you deserve, and more than I should do, however, I will do it for the sake of anyone reading this thread who is TRULY interested in what I am talking about (as opposed to trying to leech information from others, or just talking out their ass in an attempt to cover up their misdeeds)
This is an Amazon link (and don't worry, it doesn't contain an affiliate code):

http://www.amazon.com/TCP-Guide-Comp...5909984&sr=8-1

This is one of the textbooks I have on the subject, and a pretty good one at that. Refer to page 280.

NOTICE: Anyone too cheap to buy the book, or too lazy to study it, or too dumb to understand it, or all three, who wants to get me to break it down for them EVEN MORE can:

GO FUCK THEMSELVES

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by DannyCox

NOTE: I posted this on the previous page, but I don't think anyone saw it

I'm sorry, but I just went through a search and I can't find anywhere that says what you stated above. Everything I have read so far makes mention that a MAC Address is undiscoverable outside of a Network unless something is being used to actually broadcast it. I don't see anywhere that states a MAC Address is included in a TCP/IP/UDP packet. There is talk of MAC Layering in older network systems, like FDDI and Token Ring, but that is now all obsolete.

I'd love to know more about all this.

Hi Danny,

I saw it... and you're right. MAC addresses are undiscoverable outside of a LAN unless something is being used to broadcast it.

Mark

[2MuchMark]

Here ye, here ye (oops sorry, only Shellee talks like that).

It is now 6:00, and Moeman has failed me. He has failed himself and everyone else here too.

I'm sorry, Moeman. It looks like you don't get that networking job after all. I hear McDonalds is hiring someone to clean the shitters at night, though.

What I may do is give the $100.00 to ASACP anyway, but under my own name, or Danny's, or hell, maybe even under Oprano's name.

Then again, there's a pub down the street with a fucking delicious pitcher of beer just waiting for me...

Ah well, we'll see.

Shellee: Cookies? Hmm.. better lay off them a little, if ya know what I mean.


Goodnight everyone! (And thanks for visiting Oprano.com)

I'm television'ss Mark "Nobody's bitch" Prince.
Add video chat to YOUR website! http://www.2Much.net
Send traffic to girls who convert! http://www.LiveCamNetwork.com

WE LOVE YOU ALL!

[Sexyteaser]

Find MAC Address and Get MAC Address Tool

http://www.youngzsoft.net/cc-get-mac-address/

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

Find MAC Address and Get MAC Address Tool

http://www.youngzsoft.net/cc-get-mac-address/

Here ya go, Shellee:
http://www.youngzsoft.net/cc-get-mac-address/faqs.htm. Scroll down to the bottom and it says:

"Why cannot I get MAC address of remote computer?
If the computer is out of LAN and the computer is not windows platform and without install NetBIOS protocol in network property, you cannot get mac address of this computer remotely."

When digging to find out if it was possible to grab MAC addresses or not, I found this program and this site, and then saw this line.

If anyone wants to, try running that program and entering our IP Address:205.150.5.126. You will see that it does not work because our computers are outside of "Your" lan.

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

[Mediaguy]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

Find MAC Address and Get MAC Address Tool

http://www.youngzsoft.net/cc-get-mac-address/

That's to find the MAC addresses of devices on your local network, and seems to be directed at network administrators who need to monitor larger networks and subnets.

[DannyCox]

Originally Posted by Shelleehale

Find MAC Address and Get MAC Address Tool

http://www.youngzsoft.net/cc-get-mac-address/

That's just for a LAN. I can get the same information by logging into my router. I still don't believe you can get a MAC address remotely. I may be wrong as I am nowhere near a Network guy, but from what I have read, that is just something used locally to a network.

[2MuchMark]

MooMan:
My mistake! The Free Software Foundation is interesting. However they don't bennifit me in the least. We pay for the licenses of the software that runs our servers already.

Anyway, you blew it. Goodbye, goodluck, happy searching for Mac addresses in your TCP layers.

Your Sniping Partner,

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net
http://www.LiveCamNetwork.com

[Sexyteaser]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

MooMan:
My mistake! The Free Software Foundation is interesting. However they don't bennifit me in the least. We pay for the licenses of the software that runs our servers already.

Anyway, you blew it. Goodbye, goodluck, happy searching for Mac addresses in your TCP layers.

Your Sniping Partner,

Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net
http://www.LiveCamNetwork.com

Wow things are improving 3 girls online and no one in paid chat.... And your going to have a beer.... try recruiting.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

MooMan:
My mistake! The Free Software Foundation is interesting. However they don't bennifit me in the least. We pay for the licenses of the software that runs our servers already.

Anyway, you blew it. Goodbye, goodluck, happy searching for Mac addresses in your TCP layers.

Your Sniping Partner,

Good luck trying to drink your problems away.

I have news for you: you've seen nothing yet.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Here ye, here ye (oops sorry, only Shellee talks like that).

It is now 6:00, and Moeman has failed me. He has failed himself and everyone else here too.

I'm sorry, Moeman. It looks like you don't get that networking job after all. I hear McDonalds is hiring someone to clean the shitters at night, though.

What I may do is give the $100.00 to ASACP anyway, but under my own name, or Danny's, or hell, maybe even under Oprano's name.

Then again, there's a pub down the street with a fucking delicious pitcher of beer just waiting for me...

Ah well, we'll see.

Shellee: Cookies? Hmm.. better lay off them a little, if ya know what I mean.


Goodnight everyone! (And thanks for visiting Oprano.com)

I'm television'ss Mark "Nobody's bitch" Prince.
WE LOVE YOU ALL!

Nice try. You have been proven to be an idiot.

The slew of hypothetical scenarios you brought into the discussion to muddle up the initial point are meaningless.

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Hi Danny,

I saw it... and you're right. MAC addresses are undiscoverable outside of a LAN unless something is being used to broadcast it.

Mark

Hahaha

If you had paid the FSF, I would have given you a breakdown, but since you are such a cheap little ignorant fuck, I will give you a bigger freebie:

A PACKET SNIFFER CAN BE USED TO OBTAIN THE MAC ADDRESS FROM A TCP PACKET. IT WILL BE ON THE SECOND LINE TITLED "LINK" (WHICH GIVES YOU INFORMATION ABOUT LAYER 2) WHICH INCLUDES THE MAC ADDRESSES OF THE SENDING AND RECEIVING COMPUTER.

I know that you don't know what a packet sniffer is, and you are obviously confused about what can be done with it, or what is or isn't done with it, and you see it from a 14 year old point of view, and "challenge" others to do "cool" and "wow" stuff with it. Matter of fact is, by using a packet sniffer in certain ways, along with other software, you can obtain this information. The rest of your attempts at deflecting the focus from you being caught by Gonzo posting under another account are just that, pathetic attempts to wiggle out of being caught. Examples of that are "challenging" me to "get" your MAC address.

Anyone can see right through you.

How pathetic, attempting to turn this into some kind of "pride" and "authority" charade, where I am supposed to "impress" you and your sidekick, when in fact, quantifiable information is being discussed.

Now, I just told you how to get that info from a TCP packet, do I need to break it down for you even MORE?

If so, I won't do it . . . your games are ridiculous.

Now, try to refute that the MAC address can be obtained from a TCP packet using a packet sniffer.

Do it. Make more of an ass out of yourself.

[2MuchMark]

Originally Posted by moetheman

Hahaha


I know that you don't know what a packet sniffer is,

Wow, you sure owned me. You're right about everything.

ATTENTION, EVERYONE: IF YOU NEED AN EXPERT NETWORKING / SECURITY GURU, PLEASE CONTACT MOETHEMAN!! HE REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF!

[moetheman]

Originally Posted by 2MuchMark

Wow, you sure owned me. You're right about everything.

ATTENTION, EVERYONE: IF YOU NEED AN EXPERT NETWORKING / SECURITY GURU, PLEASE CONTACT MOETHEMAN!! HE REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF!

Hahaha

As I previously stated, I am not even into networking that much . . .

I am a Junior Ruby/Python programmer.

But, WHATEVER homes, I joined the slugfest in order to refute your claim that Gonzo did not catch you posting under another account because it was technologically impossible.

I have illustrated, albeit at a high level, that you were either lying, or did not know it could be done. It turns out you really did not know that. I had thought that you were just being an ass.

Either way, my point was that. And just that.