Illegal download site shut down in police raid

[RawAlex]

You can do anything you want for your own personal benefit with the product you have purchased, in the format you have chosen. Further, because of the limited rights that do exist to create a backup or to store it in another medium for your personal use (disk to tape, or to MP3, or whatever), you have a pretty open field.

However, there is a point where your license expires. If you lose all your backups and the original fails, the original purchase didn't entitle you to free replacements for life. You bought the music in a particular format and in doing so you accepted both the benefits and limitations of that format.

Let's say you buy an album online in MP3 format. Three years from now, you have an HD crash and you lose the album. Is the MP3 site obligated to give you another copy for free?

You could always go online to a torrent site and download a new copy. There is only one problem: The person distributing it to you doesn't have the rights to do so, so in reality you are receiving stolen property, even if you have previously purchased the album. I doubt anyone will get up set, but IN THEORY, you don't have the rights to that copy.

I could go on...

As for your video issue, the problem in that model was twofold: First, your purchase price was for one copy in the format purchased. There may or may not be a manufacture guarantee on the product, but in reality you purchased something at a risk. The second issue was more of the cost of product versus what the market was willing to spent to rent it. When you are paying $75 for something and renting it out for $2, yeah, you have to rent it often just to break even.

Seperate example: I run a car rental company. I buy a car and rent it to a customer, who has an accident and totally destroys the car. Should the manufacture replace the car?

You didn't buy "rights", you bought an end product.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

You can do anything you want for your own personal benefit with the product you have purchased, in the format you have chosen. Further, because of the limited rights that do exist to create a backup or to store it in another medium for your personal use (disk to tape, or to MP3, or whatever), you have a pretty open field.

However, there is a point where your license expires. If you lose all your backups and the original fails, the original purchase didn't entitle you to free replacements for life. You bought the music in a particular format and in doing so you accepted both the benefits and limitations of that format.

Let's say you buy an album online in MP3 format. Three years from now, you have an HD crash and you lose the album. Is the MP3 site obligated to give you another copy for free?

You could always go online to a torrent site and download a new copy. There is only one problem: The person distributing it to you doesn't have the rights to do so, so in reality you are receiving stolen property, even if you have previously purchased the album. I doubt anyone will get up set, but IN THEORY, you don't have the rights to that copy.

I could go on...

As for your video issue, the problem in that model was twofold: First, your purchase price was for one copy in the format purchased. There may or may not be a manufacture guarantee on the product, but in reality you purchased something at a risk. The second issue was more of the cost of product versus what the market was willing to spent to rent it. When you are paying $75 for something and renting it out for $2, yeah, you have to rent it often just to break even.

Seperate example: I run a car rental company. I buy a car and rent it to a customer, who has an accident and totally destroys the car. Should the manufacture replace the car?

You didn't buy "rights", you bought an end product.

Man, where do I start here?

Well, in my example of the 8 track tape.....
No, they didn't specifically exclude other mediums. The mediums didn't exist then. Further, the format is obsolete, and can be "backed up" digitally in an effort to "retain quality," and use my license. My license extends for my life by virtue of the right we grant them with exclusive rights to their content for the life of the author plus 17 years (back then) if I'm remembering correctly. Of course now, it's plus 75 years due to Disney's efforts to extend copyright law.
I think I'm on pretty solid ground with that.



As for the MP3 site being obligated, that's the merchant, with a theoretical "physical" product (the digital download) and he doesn't have a warranty to me for the "physical" product. the physical product and the license of the intellectual property are completely different things. So that example is a species argument.

And on the videotape, i still think there is an argument there. The industry wanted to cut out renting the tapes, but the supreme court decided that I had rights under the first sale doctrine to one video tape. I could rent, sell, or give it away as I chose, including the intellectual property contained in it.
So, by that virtue, one could say "Well, if the physical medium breaks, I'm entitled to repair it, to enjoy the intellectual property." At what point does "repair" extend to a violation of the copyright? fix a tear? Glue the label back on? put the tape wheels into a new plastic shell because the last one is cracked?
You see, it's a very slippery slope?

The car argument is just completely off point. No intellectual property involved in the conversation.

In your last argument, how do you know the guy doesn't have rights?

[RawAlex]

Bottom up: When you buy a recording, you are granted non-distribution use. You cannot resell, redistribute, or otherwise reuse with permission. Exceptions do exist (as you mentioned) for places that rent videos / movies / music, but they are limited by being able to only lend or rent original copies, they may not make copies and rent those.

Anyone putting music online for download is immediately in violation of their license, unless they have a license for re-distribution. As they would entail a royalty to get paid for every unit distributed, it is extremely unlikely (read not going to happen) that anyone would do this for free.

Even that big russian MP3 site that sells the music super cheap is in violation, indirectly, because they are paying the russian level fees only (very low) and then distributing worldwide (which they don't have the rights to do).

For your video tape, you can fix it all you want. repair the heck out of it. Knock yourself out. You can do whatever you want with the product, including recording over it or using it as a door stop. But when the mechanism no longer works, you don't have much come back to either the manufacture or the artist. Further, as a video rental store, you would not be allowed normally to copy the movie and rent the copy,see above. So your physical copy is in a sense your licensed copy. Lose the copy, potentially lose the license.

The license for the content and the delivery method are interlinked, unavoidably.

If you buy a PPV movie, and record it while you are watching it, that is an acceptable trade off (for personal use). When you give that tape to a friend to watch the movie, in theory you have violated the copyright and the license that was granted to your when you paid for the PPV movie. Further, if you did not record the PPV movie, your license to the movie lapsed as the movie ended. You could not take your cable bill to Best Buy and demand that they give you a free copy because you paid for it on PPV. You also can't take your movie stub from the theatre and demand your cable company give you free PPV.

It also doesn't extend you the rights to then go and download a copy online. First (as mentioned above) the person posting it doesn't have the right, so you would be receiving stolen property, even if you have at some point in your life owned or paid for certain limited rights regarding the movie.

So in response to your first point, while you may be granted a "lifetime" license, it is effectively a lifetime license from the original product in it's original format, plus whatever legal backup copies you may have made from that original copy. Having purchased it once on 8 track does not give you unlimited access to the same work in any other format. You purchase a content / format combination.

All that said, will they come after you for it? Probably not in any single case. But I think it would make for some very interesting arguments in court if you had 1000 CDs of music you downloaded because at some time in your life you either bought the album, watch the music video on TV (another delivery method) or attended a concert.

[EmporerEJ]

Well, I think we've potentially beat that subject to death now......


NEXT!?

[RawAlex]

yeah, it's a little puddle on the floor and not much more.

[Jace]

i can't believe I read this whole thread

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by Jace

i can't believe I read this whole thread

Okay, now I'm laughing. I was about to post the same response.