DirectNics legal rights in relation to its recent actions

[JR]

the interesting part of all this is that everyone gets upset at DirectNIC. i can understand that because of the insecurity that creates and no one wants to feel they can wake up one day and find their business shut down.

BUT... there is an entirely different side to this. thats the fact that this is still an industry that doesn't comply with the law, hasn't complied with past laws and fails miserably to police itself in any way, shape or form. in fact, the general attitude is generally one of outright defiance.

Boycotting DirectNIC, while maybe justified in the eyes of most, does nothing to address the real problems... its just theater to maintain a "feel good" and false sense of security people need to feel better about themselves and to go on about their day telling themselves that everything is ok. It ignores the fact that all registrars have this power. It ignores the fact that this is a possibility with any registrar. It ignores the fact that the Federal Government has been clear that they will do everything they can to pressure this business from every possible side. No one is 2257 compliant anyway and no matter what anyone thinks about legality or "right" and "wrong" a 38 year old mother of 3 stumbling across some of these TGP's isn't going to care much about docs when they see a consistent pattern of girls looking to be much younger than 18.

Additionally, there is a real problem. People produce and distribute CP. People abuse children. The problem with the "report it to the FBI" notion is that it does little to get the site shut down and put the person in jail and send a message. The registrar is the ONLY people that have the ability to stop someone in their tracks.. whether they should or not is obviously debatable... but notifying law enforcement brings into play 10-20 law enforcement agencies and various departments of those agencies worldwide that have to work together through impossible beurocracy and slow communication to investigate. it takes months. the dirty secret of the ASACP is what it has always been... it stops nothing. just like reporting a spammer stops nothing when the business model is already built on the fact that the site will be up for 3-4 weeks before moving. meanwhile.. children are being abused in this time. sites are up.

I dont like the idea of a registrar playing judge, jury and executioner... but a sad fact of law enforcement is that the registrar is more effective in stopping a CP related site.

[Hell Puppy]

JR is dead on.

But the problem with Directnic or anyone else playing vigilante here is there's no checks and balances. One party has all the power.

The sex.com case pretty well sets a precedent that domains are property, and there's something that really rubs me wrong about any individual party depriving another of use of their property without due process. And any Directnic kangaroo court or investigation is not my idea of due process.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

JR is dead on.

But the problem with Directnic or anyone else playing vigilante here is there's no checks and balances. One party has all the power.

The sex.com case pretty well sets a precedent that domains are property, and there's something that really rubs me wrong about any individual party depriving another of use of their property without due process. And any Directnic kangaroo court or investigation is not my idea of due process.

I agree with you fully. i think anyone does. I am just always dumbfounded by the shortsightedness of people in this business.

Boycott DirectNIC... thats fine and understandable. then what? Godaddy and others have done some very shady shit. DirectNIC was not the first shut sites down completely... and other registrars have done it without even talking to the owners, in response to complaints. Which affiliate program did Godaddy shut down when Acacia sent them a letter? Thats not much different. But thats the problem with this biz. if everyone can find a nice little patch of sand to bury their heads... problem solved!

Meanwhile, this business is still under attack from every angle and everyone is defending the guy who did the following

1) had sites full of what any parent would consider to be disturbing content, all set in a certain context to imply underage girls.

2) linked directly to sites shut down for CP

3) could have handled things quietly and like a moron decided to try his case in the GFY court of opinion... WHILE pointing out himself, time and time again that he was already committing felonies in regards to record keeping.

... and its really just a matter of time before this all happens again.... and just a matter of time before some more, irrational, illogical and incredibly nasty laws are passed because of how people act in this biz.

it is interesting to watch. counting the ratio of "Fuck DirectNIC" to "Hey, we really need to clean shit up" posts. pretty telling. most people still have no idea what their obligations are today under the law in terms of record keeping. its pretty funny... just blame Bush... keep breaking the law, keep pushing the boundaries and cry foul when shit goes sideways.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by JR

I agree with you fully. i think anyone does. I am just always dumbfounded by the shortsightedness of people in this business.

Boycott DirectNIC... thats fine and understandable. then what? Godaddy and others have done some very shady shit. DirectNIC was not the first shut sites down completely... and other registrars have done it without even talking to the owners, in response to complaints. Which affiliate program did Godaddy shut down when Acacia sent them a letter? Thats not much different. But thats the problem with this biz. if everyone can find a nice little patch of sand to bury their heads... problem solved!

Meanwhile, this business is still under attack from every angle and everyone is defending the guy who did the following

1) had sites full of what any parent would consider to be disturbing content, all set in a certain context to imply underage girls.

2) linked directly to sites shut down for CP

3) could have handled things quietly and like a moron decided to try his case in the GFY court of opinion... WHILE pointing out himself, time and time again that he was already committing felonies in regards to record keeping.

... and its really just a matter of time before this all happens again.... and just a matter of time before some more, irrational, illogical and incredibly nasty laws are passed because of how people act in this biz.

it is interesting to watch. counting the ratio of "Fuck DirectNIC" to "Hey, we really need to clean shit up" posts. pretty telling. most people still have no idea what their obligations are today under the law in terms of record keeping. its pretty funny... just blame Bush... keep breaking the law, keep pushing the boundaries and cry foul when shit goes sideways.

Yeah, and I hate being put in the position of looking like I'm defending the guy. I'm not.

I just dont approve of the way it was remediated.

As much as I might like to cut the pecker off of someone who produces childporn and feed it to him before dragging them behind a truck for a couple of hundred miles on gravel roads, that's also not the correct thing to do...especially without due process.

I think a big part of the reaction is almost all of us know we MAY fall into some gray area of the law or someone's TOS. You're right we constantly under fire. With that in mind, the thought that someone may interpret what we're doing as being across the line and shut us down and hold our domains hostage does not sit well.

Boycott Directnic is a kneejerk reaction.

Myself, I'll be reviewing TOS on all of the registrars I have domains with, and any that have any I dont think I can live with, I'll be moving away from.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

JR is dead on.

But the problem with Directnic or anyone else playing vigilante here is there's no checks and balances. One party has all the power.

The sex.com case pretty well sets a precedent that domains are property, and there's something that really rubs me wrong about any individual party depriving another of use of their property without due process. And any Directnic kangaroo court or investigation is not my idea of due process.

However, as Slavick has pointed out (and I trust Slavick on domain laws more than I do pretty much anyone else), your domains are NOT your property in many states.

California is one where they are. Ergo that's where sex.com was referenced as property. Slavick mentioned in Virginia, they are not. On another board, in another post, KK mentioned AOL winning an award against a company and was considering taking their domains in lieu of settlement payment. The company paid.

ALSO on another board, it was shown where Shaw Cable, out of Canada, got Tucows to shut down one of Brad Shaw's domains. No CP - just that they were involved in a trademark/copyright infridgment case. Brad won - the site was taken down BEFORE any judges made a ruling.

Everything is case by case.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Peaches

However, as Slavick has pointed out (and I trust Slavick on domain laws more than I do pretty much anyone else), your domains are NOT your property in many states.

California is one where they are. Ergo that's where sex.com was referenced as property. Slavick mentioned in Virginia, they are not. On another board, in another post, KK mentioned AOL winning an award against a company and was considering taking their domains in lieu of settlement payment. The company paid.

ALSO on another board, it was shown where Shaw Cable, out of Canada, got Tucows to shut down one of Brad Shaw's domains. No CP - just that they were involved in a trademark/copyright infridgment case. Brad won - the site was taken down BEFORE any judges made a ruling.

Everything is case by case.

No site should be taken down before there is a legal ruling. A civilian with a registration company is not a legal expert. Even if they were, it is certainly not clear that they have the right to lock up someone's shop because they don't like the product. It is not about cp folks, it is about how it is dealt with. The CP is a red freeking herring.
We fall prey to the same bullshit that the public does. Whenever you mention porn, they think CP.
So a company decides to flex its muscles (DN) what do they choose to set the precedent? CP.
Isn't it very obvious?

[LadyMischief]

Guess it doesn't matter what the legal rights are or what anyone things. Looks like DirectNIC just axed a freehost and all their domains are in registrar-lock as well.

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=687480

Should be interesting to see who's next.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Guess it doesn't matter what the legal rights are or what anyone things. Looks like DirectNIC just axed a freehost and all their domains are in registrar-lock as well.

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=687480

Should be interesting to see who's next.

All my domains are on REGISTER-LOCK. It's so no one can change them w/o my permission!

And did you even BOTHER to read this posted approx TWELVE HOURS AGO:

Sorry guys, it's not Directnic related.. Cogent had a fiber cut at 8:05am which isolated the Montreal network from the rest of the Net, it lasted ~15 hours!! What's unfortunate is we're in the process of turning up BGP sessions with our providers and a couple of days later this outage wouldn't have affected us.

Seriously........

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by Peaches

All my domains are on REGISTER-LOCK. It's so no one can change them w/o my permission!

And did you even BOTHER to read this posted approx TWELVE HOURS AGO:


Seriously........

Looks like I might have been mistaken. Ahh well my apologies. I think that the problem you seem to have with me is that I have a personal opinion on this that's very strong, and so do you. We will likely not agree, but I can see your points and hopefully you can see mine. I don't really care about DirectNIC, if any OTHER registrar was doing this (and apparently there was another), I would be just as worried. The whole thing happened under what seemed like a worthy cause, but the implications for the future could be bad for EVERYONE in the industry. You may not promote teen sites, Peaches, but teens aren't the only things that people can find offensive or have sites shut down for. Just about anything can be considered offensive depending on where you are and you know that. I am extricating myself from any further discussions because I am tired of running around in circles. If you people won't see (as you yourselves have said but seem not to observe personally) that there are TWO sides to the coin, and it's not my job to educate your perception. At least I can acknowledge that DirectNIC might have done what it thought was best. I don't think that you can acknowledge the potential damage their actions MAY have on future business. Let's hope you (or I) never have to worry about it.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally Posted by Peaches

However, as Slavick has pointed out (and I trust Slavick on domain laws more than I do pretty much anyone else), your domains are NOT your property in many states.

California is one where they are. Ergo that's where sex.com was referenced as property. Slavick mentioned in Virginia, they are not. On another board, in another post, KK mentioned AOL winning an award against a company and was considering taking their domains in lieu of settlement payment. The company paid.

ALSO on another board, it was shown where Shaw Cable, out of Canada, got Tucows to shut down one of Brad Shaw's domains. No CP - just that they were involved in a trademark/copyright infridgment case. Brad won - the site was taken down BEFORE any judges made a ruling.

Everything is case by case.

The ICANN and WIPO process for settling copyright infringement cases is an example of a good due independent due process. I think Shaw's case actually pre-dated that. But we ALL live under those rules including all of the registrars.

I hate kiddie porn and the black eye it gives all of us. And although on one hand I respect Directnic for taking a stand, I am a bit uneasy with how heavy handed it was with no due process or independent corroboration.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Twith no due process or independent corroboration.

Neither of which you are privy to so how are you making that ASSumption?

[softball]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Neither of which you are privy to so how are you making that ASSumption?

Then enlighten us if you are. Quit beating around the bush. All these inferences of other processes at work and blah blah blah. Spit it out. Say something damnit. We would all love to know. Is there a gag order somewhere along the line?