DirectNic Demands SlicksNetwork.com Hand Over Model IDs

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Hmmmm. So all the sites that set up profiles of girls with their pic and dob in their profile are breaking the law? Many of them are getting that info from their sponsors, so I guess the sponsors are breaking the law too? I have many model releases from content providers and such and I don't have any that have the model's permission to post that stuff on line. I guess all the gossip sites that have celebrity birthdays and pics on them and sites like imdb that have the date of birth and death and a bio are all in violation of the law as you see it.

Damn, you are such a constitutional genius rhetorical.

If the girls themselves are silly enough to share their ID, they are within their rights to do so. HOWEVER, if you are in Canada and you collect ID's, you CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE THEM IN ANY WAY without permission or a release from the legal ID holder. This applies to content producers as well, not only does their model release have to incorporate a release for the content producer to keep the content on record, but there must be a sepereate part of the release allowing it to be distributed to neccessary parties (for 2257 purposes). Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years. If it was going cross-border, the fines/jailtime are even steeper, because it was Cross-border data flow of personal information that brought the laws into effect in the first place.

How do I know? My personal lawyer is one of the forefront experts of PIPA in Canada, and in fact he put together a legal seminar for a few years ago on just this subject and how it affect Canadian adult webmasters/content producers. Many major Canadian-based programs attended and I still have all the information, should you be interested.

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

If the girls themselves are silly enough to share their ID, they are within their rights to do so. HOWEVER, if you are in Canada and you collect ID's, you CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE THEM IN ANY WAY without permission or a release from the legal ID holder. This applies to content producers as well, not only does their model release have to incorporate a release for the content producer to keep the content on record, but there must be a sepereate part of the release allowing it to be distributed to neccessary parties (for 2257 purposes). Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years. If it was going cross-border, the fines/jailtime are even steeper, because it was Cross-border data flow of personal information that brought the laws into effect in the first place.

How do I know? My personal lawyer is one of the forefront experts of PIPA in Canada, and in fact he put together a legal seminar for a few years ago on just this subject and how it affect Canadian adult webmasters/content producers. Many major Canadian-based programs attended and I still have all the information, should you be interested.

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?

That is stretching the argument to the extreme. Not a lot of model's nor employees addresses on who is lists.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

That is stretching the argument to the extreme. Not a lot of model's nor employees addresses on who is lists.

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.

Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

[softball]

Originally Posted by tony404

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

As I posted earlier, I wasn't totally sure. However, I would guess, as in most of these grey areas, that there would be a few legal opinons on that. Certainly not one I would like to challenge in a court of law. I would err on the side of caution rather than gamble with a jail sentence.
Edit: Also would any registrar accept something that had been photoshopped or altered to hide anything. Prolly not.

[gonzo]

This is a damn good debate.

No one here worrying about me fitting into cars, calling people snitches or worried if I have access....

While I admite DirectNic's ethical stance Im not sure how all of this will shake out.

This does bring to light a lot of the proposed 2257 changes specifically secondary producer issues.

For instance its illegal to copy a drivers license in the state of Georgia.

Then there are several stalking issues that stem from this if you have to give up the models ID to any secondary producer.

Im not certain where DirectNic is going with all of this. Its certainly an issue that all need to stay informed of.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by tony404

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

That would be considered personal information (especially if it is an actual scan or copy of the ID, BIG NONO) and would be illegal under PIPA regulations in Canada, and multiple international and even state regulations in the US.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by tony404

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

I have purchased plenty of content that came with the model's ID intact, but your question about 'redacted' IDs was answered back when the FSC first filed the injunction, because that was one of their earliest vitories. Recacted IDs (address blacked out) are legal as long as the DOB and photo are visible and I don't see any privacy issue in that case.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

Originally Posted by LM

Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years.

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

[softball]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

Now you are just ranting. And you are reverting to your foul mouth. As for stupid? I think not.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

Is whois information a person's ID? Cool, I finally have a driver's license then? :P

[LadyMischief]

How about we remove all doubt and I just post from the Act itself:

Personal information

Personal information includes any factual or subjective information, recorded or not, about an identifiable individual. This includes information in any form, such as:

* age, name, ID numbers, income, ethnic origin, or blood type;
* opinions, evaluations, comments, social status, or disciplinary actions; and
* employee files, credit records, loan records, medical records, existence of a dispute between a consumer and a merchant, intentions (for example, to acquire goods or services, or change jobs)

Personal information does not include the name, title or business address or telephone number of an employee of an organization.

How about the definition of consent with regards to that personal information:
Consent

Voluntary agreement with what is being done or proposed. Consent can be either express or implied. Express consent is given explicitly, either orally or in writing. Express consent is unequivocal and does not require any inference on the part of the organization seeking consent. Implied consent arises where consent may reasonably be inferred from the action or inaction of the individual.

Disclosure

Making personal information available to others outside the organization
Use

Refers to the treatment and handling of personal information within an organization.

That should clear up the "definitions" for you a little.

[LadyMischief]

Here are some of the obligations under PIPA for businesses and organization who collect personal information:

Your responsibilities

* Comply with all 10 of the principles of Schedule 1.
* Appoint an individual (or individuals) to be responsible for your organization's compliance.
* Protect all personal information held by your organization or transferred to a third party for processing.
* Develop and implement personal information policies and practices.

How to fulfil these responsibilities

* Give your designated privacy official senior management support and the authority to intervene on privacy issues relating to any of your organization's operations.
* Communicate the name or title of this individual internally and externally (e.g. on Web sites and in publications).
* Analyze all personal information handling practices including ongoing activities and new initiatives, using the following checklist to ensure that they meet fair information practices:
o What personal information do we collect?
o Why do we collect it?
o How do we collect it?
o What do we use it for?
o Where do we keep it?
o How is it secured?
o Who has access to or uses it?
o To whom is it disclosed?
o When is it disposed of?
* Develop and implement policies and procedures to protect personal information:
o define the purposes of its collection
o obtain consent
o limit its collection, use and disclosure
o ensure information is correct, complete and current
o ensure adequate security measures
o develop or update a retention and destruction timetable
o process access requests
o respond to inquiries and complaints
* Include a privacy protection clause in contracts to guarantee that the third party provides the same level of protection as your organization does.
* Inform and train staff on privacy policies and procedures.
* Make information available explaining these policies and procedures to customers (e.g. in brochures and on Web sites).

When transferring personal information to third parties, ensure that they:

* Name a person to handle all privacy aspects of the contract.
* Limit use of the personal information to the purposes specified to fulfil the contract.
* Limit disclosure of the information to what is authorized by your organization or required by law.
* Refer any people looking for access to their personal information to your organization.
* Return or dispose of the transferred information upon completion of the contract.
* Use appropriate security measures to protect the personal information.
* Allow your organization to audit the third party's compliance with the contract as necessary.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by sarettah

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.

No, they apply to any person who has a valid and legal government-issued ID. Any Joe off the street is entitled to the same rights under the privacy laws, and NOBODY aside from a government agent, a person who has been allowed the ID under a signed release from the ID holder for that person to have it, or the ID holder handing it out themselves to that person, can ID be sent, distributed or shared in any way legally. Period.

[LadyMischief]

Real world practical example. In Canada, NOBODY except a GOVERNMENT agency can ask for your ID when you are presenting yourself to apply for a service etc, or keep it on record in any way.

A lot of Canadians are not even aware of this as PIPA is relatively new, but the laws were brought into effect when personal information from Canadians was being sent to US processing centers, and the information was ending up on the fax machines of scrapyards, etc. This law only applies to Adult because of our requirements to hold ID's. We have to make special provisions for these things in our model releases, not only to hold the ID on record, but to be able to distribute it to SPECIFIC parties (such as for exclusive content clients who act as their own custodian of records). If a Canadian fills out their registration information, for example, they are VOLUNTEERING that information FIRSTHAND, NOBODY can decide what happens to their information legally after that point without that person's permission.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

We have to make special provisions for these things in our model releases, not only to hold the ID on record, but to be able to distribute it to SPECIFIC parties (such as for exclusive content clients who act as their own custodian of records). If a Canadian fills out their registration information, for example, they are VOLUNTEERING that information FIRSTHAND, NOBODY can decide what happens to their information legally after that point without that person's permission.

So, they are giving up the right to have their information remain totally private by waiving he right in a contract with you, right?

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by sarettah

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?

Read what I wrote again then perhaps revisit this statement. I made it pretty clear.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.

Which is probably why DirectNic wouldn't ask for illegal information from a Canadian company.

I personally don't see how ANYONE can correlate identity theft with a picture and birthdate. I can send you a copy of my driver's license with nothing showing but my picture and birthdate and I highly doubt you'd be able to steal my identity - or even know my real name.

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Which is probably why DirectNic wouldn't ask for illegal information from a Canadian company.

I personally don't see how ANYONE can correlate identity theft with a picture and birthdate. I can send you a copy of my driver's license with nothing showing but my picture and birthdate and I highly doubt you'd be able to steal my identity - or even know my real name.

So if DirectNIC were to sieze the domains of someone under privacy laws, that person would then just be screwed, right? They could be basically blackmailed with no way out. Sounds like a great precident to set.