The US is winning in Iraq. Number do not lie.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

Desperation. It is easy for terrorist to kill children, blow up mosques and other soft targets. They also know that people like you will see the mayhem on TV and get your sphincter all tight. The terrorist know how you think Joe along with PD and all the other vietnam scardy-cats, and they know the media will keep showing the images trying to undermine the war effort.

The US cannot be defeated in battle. We can only lose at home.

The terrorists are defeating you Joe, how does it feel to be a patsy for some ass-backwards guy who lives in cave?

You sound just like a Frenchman.* BTW - I wear glasses, so I think the appropriate retort for me is four-eyed scaredy-cat.

You should feel lucky. You have a scapegoat already in place when what seems to be the inevitable will happen - Iraq collapses into civil war, in a chaos that makes the former Yugoslovia look organized and orderly. Adopt the inevitable right wing retort, and blame it on the liberals instead of flat out fucking stupidity (or worse) in the war plan.

(You won't) Face it, Mikey, Your boys flat out fucking blew it. I don't know whether Bush/Cheney/Rice/McRumnama are just criminally stupid, or whether they believed their own blowback - but the inept way they planned for the occupation of Iraq (boots on the ground) has all but ensured long-term disasterous results for the United States. I've been saying it for years - boots on the ground early, and this clusterfuck would have been avioded.

The biggest similarity to Vietnam is that the United States is acting in concert with a puppet government that has no credibility with the populace. In 'nam the Army was riddled with Cong traitors. In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country. They are sharpening their knives to break Bosnia's records, I'm afraid.

The saddest fucking part is that it is all could have been avoided. (boots on the ground early) A few more months and a genuine effort to develop a true coalition, or even a few hundred thousand more U.S and U.K. troops could have resulted in Iraq being occupied like Eurpoe was in the aftermath of WWII. Instead we occupied Iraq just like we did Vietnam - on a part-time basis.

* - There's still plenty of Frenchman smarting over getting their asses kicked in Vietnam by the Communists and in Algeria by the Muslims.

Hmmm ... why is the song "fools rush in" running through my head?

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

* - There's still plenty of Frenchman smarting over getting their asses kicked in Vietnam by the Communists and in Algeria by the Muslims.

Smarting?

Nope , there are a load of Frenchman sitting round saying "Je te l'avais dit"

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by Nickatilynx

Smarting?

Nope , there are a load of Frenchman sitting round saying "Je te l'avais dit"

The Frenchman I see are spending times protesting, rioting, having sit-ins, shutting down train traffic, etc... etc...

All because they want guarunteed jobs for life.

The only protest in modern times to keep the status quo.

France will continue to decline. Even a modest reforms cannot get past the people.

The French people do not want to compete in the global economy, once again they want to retreat from competition.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

The biggest similarity to Vietnam is that the United States is acting in concert with a puppet government that has no credibility with the populace. In 'nam the Army was riddled with Cong traitors.

how is that possible for an elected government, elected in an election where more people participated in any elections in the US?

[JR]

the french defeat in vietnam was pretty interesting. war is just not their thing. they moved almost all their forces to a large valley that was indefensible and then got blasted into submission from every side. french suck at war. they are pretty good with cheese though.

[Mike AI]

Originally Posted by JR

the french defeat in vietnam was pretty interesting. war is just not their thing. they moved almost all their forces to a large valley that was indefensible and then got blasted into submission from every side. french suck at war. they are pretty good with cheese though.

and wine.

They seemed to be effective in protesting as well. Maybe we can get the students and unions to go to IRaq and hold protests and sit-ins!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

how is that possible for an elected government, elected in an election where more people participated in any elections in the US?

Please - I do believe that Iraq has always had higher voter turnout than the U.S., even under the previous government. (That's not a completely fair comparison, and I know it.)

Interesting elections. Most of the declared candidates were unknown to the people voting for them, and went into hiding the minute they declared their candidacy in order to live to election day. The vote went pretty much along sectarian lines, and that situation is getting worse instead of better.

In quoting me you left off "In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country." This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

i dont really care about Iraq or Bush to be honest. mostly, i think the discussions are interesting. i just think that people in these types of arguments tend to be so polarized that they lack any real objectivity on the subject and in spite of such polarized views, no one can admit they are biased and one sided. thats usually evident in the remarks and comments which completely dismiss any other perspective on the subject.

Iraq imploded when the army and other fighting forces dissapeared as the US/British et al rolled in. looting. no electricity, no medicines, no functioning schools, no functioning hospitals no water etc etc etc etc etc. it was the end of the world as we knew it according to some. it was a war that was going to cause the entire middle east to rise up against the US and cause revolutions everywhere.

people were quick to point out how Iraq was fucked beyond repair and quick to highlight all the shit that was going wrong. tremedous strides have been made since then which include democratic elections, new military, new police (who have enough conviction to work knowing they are targets of extremists and are frequently killed)... yet somehow, people seem to believe that things have not improved in spite of the obvious.

i would say that generally, no one can argue that the occupation was poorly planned. i would even support the argument that bush is borderline retarded. however, i really do not believe that things are as terrible as you and others would have us believe.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

In quoting me you left off "In Iraq the Army is riddled with sectarian operatives, and the various and sundry militias are taking over the army in some regions of the country." This same scenario is playing out in other segments of the government - and the more it happens the less credibility it will have with the people.

are you saying this "problem" is worsening since day 1, or improving or remaining unchanged?

"...the less credibility it will have with the people" is an assumption on your part based on your interpretation of events. i think you will have a hard time making the case that the situation you mentioned above is getting worse and not better.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

are you saying this "problem" is worsening since day 1, or improving or remaining unchanged?

"...the less credibility it will have with the people" is an assumption on your part based on your interpretation of events. i think you will have a hard time making the case that the situation you mentioned above is getting worse and not better.

I do think the situation on the ground in Iraq, particularly as it relates to the Iraqi Army, is deteriorating at this time.