Bush is wrong, again!!

[Biggy]

Originally Posted by Mike AI

It is a story about nothing. Senators knew about it, there was oversight, it was in the article. This is about hyping a book - the same author has a book coming out next month.

I support NSA Spyng, we should do more!!

We want to do everything we possibly can to aid the enemy. It is amazing. The next 9-11 is going to be on the Democrats hands. Between killing the patriot act, this scam, the torture thing, saying we are losing in Iraq....

Pathetic that people will say or do anything and put our Country in peril just to slam Bush.

I do have to give Bush credit with the fact there hasn't been another 9-11. I'm from NYC, I see the subways, the tunnels, etc. - they really aren't that secure so my guess is they get a lot of them at the border, etc. Or maybe enough time hasn't elapsed.

Simply put, the Patriot Act could be a good thing, but I don't trust the conservative Republicans in office to use it the right way...

You can't allow torture because if we do, the next time we go to war and Americans are captured... guess what - it opens the door for them to be tortured. Don't think short term. This is why the world say the US is taking a step backwards, we want people to allow torture?

I would support NSA spying, but it's like anything else. It's all about how it is used and if it is used properly. The way things in politics work, a lot of Americans including myself don't trust those in power not to abuse it. Everything in life is about personal gain and rational self-interest. Everyone is also human, especially George W and those around him.

[RyanLanane]

[quote=Biggy]
You can't allow torture because if we do, the next time we go to war and Americans are captured... guess what - it opens the door for them to be tortured. QUOTE]

And this isn't already a problem? As sad as it is.. Right this second, and aMerican soldier is being tortured somewhere by someone. Most likely a solider that is in secret ops etc... But none the less, do you think Iraqi freelancers right now whoa re still trying to wage war against us... Are going to CARE whether or not we tortured their soldiers when they think (wait, they wouldn't even think about it) about whether to turture a U.S. soldier OR even a citizen for that matter...

I am not saying it's O.K. for us to torture everyone - But I'll be damned if I care if the line is crossed with an enemy soldier to extract information that will save American's lives at home or overseas.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Biggy

You can't allow torture because if we do, the next time we go to war and Americans are captured... guess what - it opens the door for them to be tortured. Don't think short term. This is why the world say the US is taking a step backwards, we want people to allow torture?

thats the oldest and dumbest argument that has existed since the dawn of civilization. rogue regimes are going to act like rogue regimes no matter what conventions the civilized world abides by.

if you stopped and thought for 2 seconds about your arguement you would realize that the inverse would also be true in that others would not torture for fear of their own being tortured.

the US is stepping backwards? really? by passing ANOTHER law against torture? there are tons of laws and international agreements against torture right now. who in government is saying it shoudl be allowed? do you know what "torture" is today? stupid shit like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. big fucking deal. no one is talking about breaking bones and electrical shocks to the genitals. kill 3000 people in a terrorist attack and someone keeps you awake for a few days. boooo fucking hoooo!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by JR

thats the oldest and dumbest argument that has existed since the dawn of civilization. rogue regimes are going to act like rogue regimes no matter what conventions the civilized world abides by.

if you stopped and thought for 2 seconds about your arguement you would realize that the inverse would also be true in that others would not torture for fear of their own being tortured.

the US is stepping backwards? really? by passing ANOTHER law against torture? there are tons of laws and international agreements against torture right now. who in government is saying it shoudl be allowed? do you know what "torture" is today? stupid shit like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc. big fucking deal. no one is talking about breaking bones and electrical shocks to the genitals. kill 3000 people in a terrorist attack and someone keeps you awake for a few days. boooo fucking hoooo!

Life is really simple in JR's world.

The law passed by Congress this week was only necessary because the Bush Administration has taken us backwards in our adherence to many treaties, the Geneva conventions on treatment of prisoners being only one of them.

How much sleep or sensory deprivation have you undergone? What is your level of expertise in being treated like a prisoner?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't have any objections to removing the genitals of an individual responsible for a terrorist attack with a very dull knife over a long period of time.

Not sure I would object to that same treatment for the individuals responsible for allowing terrorists the opportunity to operate realtively freely in Iraq, either.

I do have a problem with the United States being responsible for such treatment, or sleep and sensory deprivation, etc., because somebody happened to be walking down the wrong street at the wrong time, or because somebody's neighbor was still pissed off about the party last week and informed on them.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

I do have a problem with the United States being responsible for such treatment, or sleep and sensory deprivation, etc., because somebody happened to be walking down the wrong street at the wrong time, or because somebody's neighbor was still pissed off about the party last week and informed on them.

the world is an imperfect place. people also get struck by lightning. so what? thats like saying "what happens if you get convicted of murder and sentenced to death"... well... it would suck. and? the system is not perfect and cannot be no matter what measures you put in place to protect the innocent and the rights of terrorists.

oh... "yeah, well what if it was you?" you are going to say as if that argument hasn't been heard a million times. well... since i know the odds are about 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 that i will be suspected of terrorism, i dont care. i did not go study in afghanistan. i did not frequent any terrorist camps. i did not make suspicious trips to chechnya. i dont frequent mosques and hang with known supporters of terrorist networks, i dont fly back and forth to syria and i dont bring box cutters on commercial flights.

oh... you are suggesting that people can just be nabbed at random without cause or warrants or anything and then be tortured? PDworld sounds like a scary place. a place where all reality ceases to exist and everyones worst paranoias become the rule of law.

and besides.... lets not pretend that no one is accountable when a mistake is made... and it just happens all the time. or are you going to further your argument by suggesting that not only will this person be mistakenly nabbed on the street for no reason at all with no supporting evidence and documents or a warrant, then be tortured... and then will be murdered with his body dissapearing?

arguments like this are not about 1000's of mistakes. they are about an occasional mistake. so what? how many people are sitting on death row right now that are innocent? MANY MORE than will be abducted by men in black and tortured for information they dont have. maybe we should be worrying about that first? but then again its not something you are worried can happen to you since you don't envision yourself standing outside a bar, drunk and holding a murder weapon anytime soon.

(ps... my tone sounds really shitty... its just for effect. i am just really joking around out of boredom for the sake of entertainment)

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by JR

if you stopped and thought for 2 seconds about your arguement you would realize that the inverse would also be true in that others would not torture for fear of their own being tortured.

Yeah! Get your retaliation in first! That's the way to do it.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Yeah! Get your retaliation in first! That's the way to do it.

not what i was saying at all. if you use the argument that torture will result in retaliation, then you have to assume that the other side see's value in using torture as a means of cohersion. if thats true then the whole argument falls apart.

i personally dont believe that Iran would capture 100 soldiers or pilots after an attack on their nuclear facilities and not do everything possible to extract every bit of info they could for them and seriously doubt that the health and wellbeing of those captives would be their first concern.

intelligence relies very heavily on torture to extract info quickly when the situation requires. do you think 10 guys who tried to blow up an embassy and killed 300 people are just going to sit down and give up the details of their organization without any form of cohersion? what if more attacks are imminent? are you supposed to ask people who hate you more than anything in this world and want to kill as many of your people as possible nicely to give you some help?

torture is not something thats done for sadistic fun. its a method from extracting info. the more pressure they can put on someone, the more info they get and the more accurate it tends to be.

i dont think people should be getting their dicks cut off an served to them on a bed of rice for breakfast just to see if they know something... but i think that smacking people around, playing mind games, breaking them down by depriving them of food, sleep, isolation etc is fine.

you can't apply all the rules of compassion and humanity to people who are 100% pure evil.

[JR]

there was a show on the history channel just yesterday about the 84 embassy bombing in beirut. lebonese authorities nabbed most of them within an hour (because they already knew who they were and what they were going to do).

they were interrogated by the CIA, trying to be nice etc. finally the interrogators went to their superiors and said "either we get rough with these guys or we should just go home because we are wasting our time". what happened? some new guys came in, beat the shit out of them. they starting finding more people. arrested one guy who was well connected and thought was untouchable and who actually organized the whole thing, they beat the shit out of him and broke him down until he started talking.

then they got to the bottom of everything pretty quickly. what if he was innocent? well, that would suck. the problem in all of this is that its not so black and white. bad people, who already do not fear death and are doing terrible shit and motivated by hatred dont talk very easily either.

my point is simply that there has to be some balance. you can't just categorically say "ok, we are not even going to go as far as sleep deprivation because we are very high and mighty and shining beacons of morality" -- when you have no other ways to get info and reliable info and particularly time sensitive info from them.

what you do is exactly what is being done now. you publically say you are the shining beacon of morality and in private you send teams of people in to kidnap and torture people or fly them to somewhere and let those security services do it. thats why i said the new bill is just a silly political game and theater for the public. somewhere in saudi arabia, there is a guy named habib right now getting his ass beaten within an inch of his life because he has info on the insurgency in iraq, terrorist plots or whatever. so be it. i am very ok with that. suggesting that some poor kid walking down 1st avenue in seattle is going to get mistakenly nabbed by men in black and tortured (which under the law, really means some pretty mild shit anyway) is no more troublesome to me than suggesting someone might die in a car wreck. shit happens.