who do you hold responsible?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Peaches

You have to at least put some of the blame on the citizens They are looting unnecessary items, killing, raping, shooting at rescuers...I doubt an emergency plan included "What to do when our own citizens turn against themselves and approaching those trying to help them with deadly force.".

Sure, you can say "Well they had nothing, no one was there in minutes helping them, etc." but I don't recall Tsnami survivors acting this way and they had less food and shelter for a longer period of time. In fact, I can't remember this kind of response in any natural disaster.

not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?

I agree they should be shot on site. But as I explained to Cory, that will be the next headline: "People killed while trying only to survive". Someone is always going to blame someone else for problems.

When the people you try to help are fighting you, it becomes almost a no-win situation. I want to get Billy out

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Peaches

When the people you try to help are fighting you, it becomes almost a no-win situation.

It happens everyday in Baghdad... still someone have the leadership to not back down from the thugs... What makes New Orleans different?

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Rolo

It happens everyday in Baghdad... still someone have the leadership to not back down from the thugs... What makes New Orleans different?

I cannot imagine it was something that was planned for. We KNEW we were going to be shot at in Baghdad. I don't recall any other situation where rescuers were shot at during a natural disaster rescue - I doubt it was something they had planned for.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Peaches

I don't recall any other situation where rescuers were shot at during a natural disaster rescue - I doubt it was something they had planned for.

In Europe they have had problems with people living in social areas making fake alarm calls, and then attacking the rescue workers when they arrive - throwing stones at them etc. Reason is that these people see any "uniform" as authorities like police. This mentality is also present in crisis situations - you could be a mailman in a uniform, and someone would see you as an authority...

[sarettah]

It was a tremendous lack of planning that caused the problems.

The evacuation plan was almost non existent. The evacuation plan did not take into account the people without transportation.

The ideas to put people into the superdome looks as if it was almost a last minute thing, and it was a stupid solution from the git go.

FEMA claims they didn't know people were at the convention center. I knew people were at the convention center, anyone that watched CNN Tuesday and Wednesday knew there were people at the convention center. How the hell could FEMA NOT know ?

The hurricane was noone's fault. That almost all of the aftermath was foreseeable and could have been avoided has many levels of fault to it. From the local level of government right on up to the head man in charge.

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?

The Guardsmen have been given the order to shoot to kill.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/...atrina_wrap_dc

The problem comes down to... how can you shoot someone when you can't tell if he's carrying a DVD player that he doesn't need or a box of food that he does need?

The rapists, and folks shooting at rescue personnel, sure... kill 'em. Harder to do with the looters.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Harder to do with the looters.

You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Rolo

You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).

Rolo the jails are all flooded and/or destroyed. They've been arresting people and there's nowhere to put them. Once you arrest them, then you have to worry about transporting them somewhere and finding a place to keep them - things that the lawful citizenry needs first.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Rolo the jails are all flooded and/or destroyed. They've been arresting people and there's nowhere to put them. Once you arrest them, then you have to worry about transporting them somewhere and finding a place to keep them - things that the lawful citizenry needs first.

You will be surprised what "hand restraints + barbed wire + armed soliders" can do to control people... You can setup outdoor camps on the asphalt. Civil rights have been removed from the area - no one are expected to have their "one phone call" and be brought before a judge - this is a disaster area.

Transportation should be no problem - boats can be used along with airlift - you do not need to transport inmates hundreds of miles by these means - simply to dry land, where they can be removed by trucks.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally Posted by Rolo

You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).

This is NOT a solution...NOPD released all criminals from local jails as it was impossible to keep them, due to the local conditions.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

This is NOT a solution...NOPD released all criminals from local jails as it was impossible to keep them, due to the local conditions.

Which shows that someone in command fucked up - letting criminals out in a disaster area is like mixing fuel with fire...

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Rolo

Which shows that someone in command fucked up - letting criminals out in a disaster area is like mixing fuel with fire...

What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?

Rolo hon I don't think you fully understand what's going on down there. There are entire prison populations sitting on highway off-ramps without food and water with nothing more than guards with guns to keep them under control.
There isn't much "dry land" to put these guys on. There certainly aren't many cops around to babysit them - the cops who aren't looting themselves are busy trying to save people from drowning and stopping the looting.

Go to http://news.yahoo.com and look at the pictures. They'll help you understand. If the only pics you're seeing are those from Buff's blog, you're not getting the full picture. It's dry where Buff is at - it's NOT dry in the rest of the city.

Also if you go to http://www.cnn.com there's a link to Mayor Nagin's radio interview this morning where he's cussing up a storm and telling it like it is.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Carrie

What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?

Put them up on a long line - tie them with rope (bed sheets etc.), and walk until you are safe from the water. Then have someone drop you supplies, or move them to safe/dry land. Ofcourse when evacuation is not working, then it will mean harsh conditions in the heat, but you can survive days without food/water, if you conserve your energy.

Maybe its my european background, but keeping prisoners under control during a long march by foot is not a frightening situation. Again when you got people under control, then they can not cause problems to other people fighting for their own life. And where is the logic in realeasing criminals, who have no resources to take care of themself, in an area where there is no order? If they had lions at the zoo would they also release them into the public?

[Vick]

Originally Posted by Carrie

What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?

.

Yes

Murders, rapists and the like should have been left to die

[melody]

The Republicans will all blame the Democrats and the Democrats will all blame the Republicans.

However, Louisiana and NO's command and control were in chaos. Bush was strumming a guitar and eating cake. He made the decisions which ultimately led to most of the problems - FEMA gutting, NO funding cuts, the National Guard being everywhere but where they are supposed to be. I'm sure the local officials shared in the stupidity, but Bush wins hands down in the final tally.

Maybe Bush could send his good friend Pat Robertson in to put some hits on people. You know, the Christian way.

[MissEve]

Originally Posted by Winetalk.com

not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?

My grandparents and mother were evacuated in 1967 when Fairbanks, AK was flooded. They told me that the first looter was shot and killed and after that there was no more looting or violence. Obviously this was a much smaller city and a different time but it DOES seem pretty effective.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by MissEve

My grandparents and mother were evacuated in 1967 when Fairbanks, AK was flooded. They told me that the first looter was shot and killed and after that there was no more looting or violence. Obviously this was a much smaller city and a different time but it DOES seem pretty effective.

People loot because there's nobody there stopping them. If they thought they'd get shot they wouldn't be doing it ;-)

When there is a large area of low cost housing where the local teenagers spend their days doing car jackings, driveby's, selling crack and raping girls then it's quite predictable what will happen when the police won't be able to respond to calls. I can't believe nobody figured this out in advance and that they have to scramble for nearly a week to deal with it.