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I think the real issue that is going to hurt Kerry is NOT what he did or did not do in Vietnam. This was a red herring to get the conversation started.
The real issue which is going to hurt Kerry, is well documented - it is Kerry's actions of thowing away medals, testifying before congress about war crimes, and his other anti-war activities.
The attacks on his stories in Vietnam, is setting the table for these attacks.....
I think these will have an impact.
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Originally posted by Sharpie@Aug 31 2004, 08:39 AM I think the mudslinging has just begun.... both sides have had way too much time to campaign.
I think there will be some October surpriises.........
yeah like bush bringing in Osama from club med on october 30
seriously, i think this will have 0 efect on Kerry's campaign. The number of swing voters are just not there. Have the election today and odds are the results would be pretty similar to those on Nov 2
Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 31 2004, 11:32 AM I think the real issue that is going to hurt Kerry is NOT what he did or did not do in Vietnam. This was a red herring to get the conversation started.
The real issue which is going to hurt Kerry, is well documented - it is Kerry's actions of thowing away medals, testifying before congress about war crimes, and his other anti-war activities.
The attacks on his stories in Vietnam, is setting the table for these attacks.....
I think these will have an impact.
And I think you are every bit as pathetically desperate to interpret any factoid, grasp any straw, parrot whatever jargon du jour, pounce on the favorable poll of the moment (take cheer - Bush leads Kerry 49-36% over who Americans would let walk their dog on the AKC website), as Raw Alex is.
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i think it is best for the bush campaign to cut bait and distance themselves from the swift boat guys. they already have gotten rid of the degrees of separation.
Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Aug 31 2004, 01:36 PM-->
QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Aug 31 2004, 01:36 PM)
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Sykk I have my fair share of family who are Vietnam Vets. None of them threw their medals away, and none I know support Kerry. Those who threw their medals away, and were active in anti-war activities were in the minority.
Polling data shows a majority of Vets, including Vietnam Vets support Bush.
You mention the momentum like it is nothing. The momentum for Bush ( or against Kerry) started BEFORE the convention. Momentum and bounces are what conventions are about....
How high was Kerry's bonce??
So far it looks like the ghost of Lee Atwater is running the show.
He was a man who knew how to win elections!
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Originally posted by Mike AI@Aug 31 2004, 02:54 PM PD getting a little nervous from the momentum swing in polls??
How do you feel about Kerry throwing his medals away? His testimony about Vietnam? His anti-war movment actions?
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey. I think the last swing voters in this election remaining are the cross-eyed evangelical Buddists and the Lithuanian Lutherans for Jah ... so this poll or that poll neither inspires me or worries me.
You know goddamned good and well I don't have a problem with Kerry's anti-war activities or his testimony before congress. HE FUCKING EARNED THE RIGHT TO PROTEST THE WAR, whether contemporary politically motivated historical revisionists want to believe it or not.
As far as his testimony goes - he overstated virtually everything he said. Anybody who was alive at the time it took place who uses the slightest bit of objectivity knows that everything that was said about the war on both sides was overstated. Whoopty fucking do. At least Kerry was interested in and involved with the issues of the day. From what I can tell, about all Bush was doing at the time was partyiing hearty.
The medals? That was tacky, but he did earn them, even though some of the people who gave them to him either lied when they did so or are lying now. I personally know some people who did the same thing with their medals. Didn't think much of their actions, either - but considering they had the balls to go, didn't think my opinion mattered much. Was it as tacky as being a fortunate son who hid from 'Nam in the Guard)? Not in my opinion.
I'm not basing my support of John Kerry on his service in a war that was resolved 34 years and 4 months ago yesterday. John Kerry represents my views far more than George Bush does on virtually every important issue of the day - THIS FUCKING DAY.
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I've prolly have met over 1000 nam vets in my life and I've NEVER know any that THREW away any medals or whatnot. They might have something to say about the way it was run(1 hand tied behind back type thing) but they were all PROUD they served and most would do it again.
um, maybe I just meet the dedicated and proud ones I dont know.
SemperFi
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Aug 31 2004, 03:50 PM-->
QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Aug 31 2004, 03:50 PM)
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my uncle a retired bird saw 2 tours in nam has a infantry officer and NEVER saw the things kerry talked about. Now you would THINK that if theres these things happening on the scale that KERRY was reporting(after "4" months incountry) he would have heard, seen, smelled, hell guessed some of it. YES I know things happened I'm not totally blind and dumb but it was the exception NOT the rule that kerry reported.
It was a smart play on Kerry part though, hell he might make CIC
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Originally posted by dantheman@Aug 31 2004, 04:10 PM my uncle a retired bird saw 2 tours in nam has a infantry officer and NEVER saw the things kerry talked about. Now you would THINK that if theres these things happening on the scale that KERRY was reporting(after "4" months incountry) he would have heard, seen, smelled, hell guessed some of it. YES I know things happened I'm not totally blind and dumb but it was the exception NOT the rule that kerry reported.
It was a smart play on Kerry part though, hell he might make CIC
Dan you must be kidding me!!!
Your uncle must be being paid off by the Bush Campaign!!!
Your Uncle = BAD
Kerry = GOOD
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Originally posted by dantheman@Aug 31 2004, 01:10 PM my uncle a retired bird saw 2 tours in nam has a infantry officer and NEVER saw the things kerry talked about. Now you would THINK that if theres these things happening on the scale that KERRY was reporting(after "4" months incountry) he would have heard, seen, smelled, hell guessed some of it. YES I know things happened I'm not totally blind and dumb but it was the exception NOT the rule that kerry reported.
It was a smart play on Kerry part though, hell he might make CIC
huh? your dad did two tours in vietnam and never saw anyone get shot?
my father did two tours in vietnam and saw things so horific he would never talk to them.
sounds to me like somebodies dad spent the war in Geaorge Bush's vietnam
Originally posted by grimm+Aug 31 2004, 04:40 PM-->
QUOTE (grimm @ Aug 31 2004, 04:40 PM)
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Originally posted by grimm+Aug 31 2004, 04:53 PM-->
QUOTE (grimm @ Aug 31 2004, 04:53 PM)
Quote:
Originally posted by dantheman@Aug 31 2004, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by grimm@Aug 31 2004, 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by dantheman@Aug 31 2004, 04:10 PM my uncle a retired bird saw 2 tours in nam has a infantry officer and NEVER saw the things kerry talked about. Now you would THINK that if theres these things happening on the scale that KERRY was reporting(after "4" months incountry) he would have heard, seen, smelled, hell guessed some of it. YES I know things happened I'm not totally blind and dumb but it was the exception NOT the rule that kerry reported.
It was a smart play on Kerry part though, hell he might make CIC
Gee, guys ... if what's important is Kerry's actual remarks , then he did not say he personally saw the things he described to the Senate. He did, however, say that these things have been told to him by other veterans.
Since we seem to be basing this debate on family ties , my cousin never saw any war crimes either ... but then again, to hear that mofo tell it he was so stoned out of his fucking mind for the tour and a half he (a month after Tet until late 69, when he was wounded) spent over there that it took him five years to get straight once he got back.
If you pressed him on the subject, however ... he rationalized away what he saw Americans do by describing it as no worse than what the Cong did. I have found that to be true with more than one person, btw.
I've done some work with support groups for vets dealing with Agent Orange and vets with PTSD. I've talked to people from the Army, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the Marines, and the Air Scouts; vets who were there before '64 through Tet all the way up to the day Siagon fell. I've talked with people who grunted their way through jungle, were on the rivers at the same time as Kerry and after, and people who were senior staff members for both Zumwalt and Westmoreland.
It varied from year to year, from command to command, from region to region. Some I've talked to never saw anything like what Kerry said others had relayed to him, including a couple with four tours. Some with the exact same amount of time saw stuff that makes Me Li look like a Sunday School picnic - including a fairly senior JAG officer on Westmoreland's staff who thought Barry Goldwater was a pansy-assed liberal and that John Birch was suspicously pink.
It was an ugly fucking war. The Air Force, Navy, and even more so, it's wholy owned subsidiary (sorry, Dan, I had to) the Marine Corps never suffered the collapse of the Chain of Command the way the Army did. Most of the horror stories that I've heard were told by Army vets. There was a relationship between atrocities and drug abuse (also a Chain of Command issue). The presence of "non-military assets" also played a role in the kinds of things that went on; and the bald-faced hypocricy of the Nixonger, er Kiisengon, "Vietmamization" (increase the operational demands on a diminishing level of troops) also played a part.
Just out of curiousity ... which website or talking head has started using the term "edgy" when describing the contempt some of us feel for this bogus non-issue?
I see the parrots are cawing it quite a bit.
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PD, I agree with you 100%. I KNOW some things happened I KNOW that they happen in EVERY WAR in History..............BUT a butter bar that was only there couple of months that got HEARSAY from some of his "comrades if I mayhas NO right to do what he did. Ya know Once I say this I'm opening up a whole nother(is that a word)can of worms...........but his actions were no different that fondas in MY opinion. Of course there was a TON of folks in the nation that thought that way..........ummm, maybe even enough to jump start a run on the white house
too each his own though.
btw,the edgy thing was just me, no secret meetings, conf calls or smoke signals.
sorry didnt mean to burst ya bubble
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gota run guys, the convention starts soon and gota make sure the uplink in working. Hey Mike, dont forget the um u know what tonight we have more work to do as you can see h34r:
have fun, gona go have a cold bev or 4
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I think Bush is a proven liar, (even though his CVIA upbringing tought him how to stay at plausabile deniabilty lengths) but think abotu it, George senior was one of the henchmen for Nixon, and even was the frirst to come out defending him, then move on too Reagan, and the lies they gor caught in over the whole Iran cntra thing, couple all that with the weapons WE supplied to Iraq, and Osama during that time too...
and hmmm is there any wonder how or why GW is the way is?
I believe Kerry stood up for what he believed, and that is far more impressive to me, than a guy who doges the draft, and lives a life built on lies.
I can get awfully cranky after 6 hours on the road and two days of my DSL working like a 28K modem.
Atrocities are committed in every war - no doubt about that. Seldom, however, does the chain of command break down in the way that the Army's did in Vietnam. Unfortunately, like I said above, serious discussion of that sort of topic was drowned out in the banshee-sreamin'-din from the 70s equivelent of Michael Moore and Fox News fans. I'd be lying if I said I understood it in those precise terms at the time - but in my own defense, in 72 when Kerry testified I was 19.
There were some genuine extremists in the Vietnam Vets Against The War - Kerry was not one of them, no matter how hard the Republican spin machine is trying to paint him as one today. Comparing Kerry to Fonda is a lot like comparing your uncle or my cousin to William Calley. The use of the comrades term is clever - I'll give you that - but it's dead wrong. There were some wackos in the VVAW, but the majority of them, including the ones I knew personally, were no more "comrades" in THAT sense than everyone who supported the war was a pseudofacist tool of the capitalist war machine.
I was one of millions of Americans who was active in the antiwar movement. Apparently I attracked a little bit of attention even though I was in high school, because my Navy security clearance read "interim" for a lot longer than was normal at the time. (My best friend from high school still contends that I owe him for several ounces of Hawaian "oregeno" that got flushed when the revenuers showed up at college to interview him about me).
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I'll probably break this in a single day, but for now, I'm vowing to avoid all political threads until closer to the election.
No one changes their mind, the venting is met by more venting, and the extremism is so rampant from ALL SIDES that it's making me wonder if some folks are either 200% full of bull or in actual need of therapy.
one should not fire the "i was in vietnam" salvo without expecting someone to return fire. attack, counter attack. offense and defense. victory and defeat. there is no right and wrong in war. just a victor and the defeated. given the choice, either would choose "morally wrong" and victory over "morally right" and defeat. that is the nature of the political beast.
I think JFK spoke his mind when he returned from Vietnam. He told of things that happened day in and day out in CERTAIN parts of Vietnam. I am sure these things didn't happen everywhere but I am equally sure that in some parts they were a daily occurance. Hell my father served a full TOD over there and never saw a single bullet. Not ONE. He was an office clerk. So he would have a different view than someone who spent their entire tour in the jungle right? It's all relative...
What saddens me is that no candidate anymore can focus on the good he plans to do for my country. It all comes down to mudslinging. I personally don't want to hear about what the other guy did wrong...I want to hear about what you are going to do right. Sad sad state of affairs.
In conclusion, I don't agree with everything John Kerry says or does, BUT I don't agree with ANYTHING GWB says or stands for. So in my eyes Kerry is the better option. I am a swing voter and vote who I feel will serve my country better. I am looking forward to the debates. If there was ever any doubt before, after the debates there will be none.
Then again, Al Gore made GWB look like a complete moron in the 2000 debates and look who's in office.
Originally posted by NickPapageorgio@Sep 1 2004, 09:00 AM I think JFK spoke his mind when he returned from Vietnam. He told of things that happened day in and day out in CERTAIN parts of Vietnam. I am sure these things didn't happen everywhere but I am equally sure that in some parts they were a daily occurance. Hell my father served a full TOD over there and never saw a single bullet. Not ONE. He was an office clerk. So he would have a different view than someone who spent their entire tour in the jungle right? It's all relative...
What saddens me is that no candidate anymore can focus on the good he plans to do for my country. It all comes down to mudslinging. I personally don't want to hear about what the other guy did wrong...I want to hear about what you are going to do right. Sad sad state of affairs.
In conclusion, I don't agree with everything John Kerry says or does, BUT I don't agree with ANYTHING GWB says or stands for. So in my eyes Kerry is the better option. I am a swing voter and vote who I feel will serve my country better. I am looking forward to the debates. If there was ever any doubt before, after the debates there will be none.
Then again, Al Gore made GWB look like a complete moron in the 2000 debates and look who's in office.
Carry on...
Nick you really are brainwashed.
JFK continues to change his story. If he was honest and said what you claim he did in his post, I would have no argeument with him. But he keeps changing his story. The latest is that he did not see any war crimes, but was told about them from others. Obviously he is smart enough now to deny he participated or even saw war crimes first hand.
As far as Gore beating Bush in the debates. You are trying to re-write history. Gore was stiff, and ANGRY in the debates. Bush baited him in, into losing his cool. Remember all the eye rolling, and the loud sighs??
I hope you enjoy Canada. All the other liberal celebrities who swore they wold leave country when Bush won never did..... but hey I never expected them to stick to their word, they are liberal....
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Personally, I don't really care for John Kerry. In my eyes however, he is a better option than the dictator in training we currently have in office.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the left.
Relax after 4 years Bush will move on.
No dictatorship.
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This is always going to be a one sided debate because the closed W got to a war injury was stubbing his toe on the way out the door of the national guard office when he disappeared for a year or so.
It will be one sided until we all figure out what Chenney had to do that was so freaking important that he couldn't serve his country, yet has to qualms about sending other boys and girls over to die for the country.
From outside American, I can say you are (as a country) less loved, less respected, more feared (in a bully sort of a way), more likely to be a target of hatred, and seen to be lead by a clueless bully with a big gun in his hand. The world as a whole don't love ya anymore. Nobody wants to play with a bully, except for maybe his two or three "friends"... and it looks like Tony Blair might not be in power all that much longer, which would leave W with less friends.
It's not a good situation at all. Too ban most americans never get outside their own country long enough to see what the world sees.
Alex
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08-31-2004
that if theres these things happening on the scale that KERRY was reporting(after "4" months incountry) he would have heard, seen, smelled, hell guessed some of it. YES I know things happened I'm not totally blind and dumb but it was the exception NOT the rule that kerry reported.
, then he did not say he personally saw the things he described to the Senate. He did, however, say that these things have been told to him by other veterans. 
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