Questions for Bob from Solar Billing...

[gonzo]

Here are some questions that Ive got from the Monday night chat that people are unclear on or they felt you didnt answer. Feel free to use Oprano as your sounding board.

1. Did you ever find out what the descriptor was that a surfer will see when a charge is made to his card via solar billing?

2. How will you allow clients to transfer money to Paypal or Epassporte accounts since there is no transfer between Paypal and Epassporte for fraud control and you dont issue a card like they both do?

3. Exactly how are you going to use Verfied by Visa to do rebills when the surfer is the only person to hold the passkey? Will you notify the consumer each time hes going to be rebilled so he can pass you the number?

4. Can you explain your fraud control a little bit better? Your going to suspend the webmaster account or surfer account if they issue a chargeback? I was confused.

5. No one is still clear on how your going to port rebills over from CCBill and Ibill accounts. You said that the webmaster would transfer control of those accounts over to you and you would work some kind of port? What about my buddies at Jettis? Are you working with them too?

Im sure a few more folks from the show have questions but these are the ones that Ive gotten inquiries about so if any of the rest of you have specific questions for Bob from Solar Billing please post them here. Ive asked Bob to come and do a post show clarification.

[Solar Billing]

Originally posted by gonzo@Feb 19 2004, 05:13 AM
Here are some questions that Ive got from the Monday night chat that people are unclear on or they felt you didnt answer. Feel free to use Oprano as your sounding board.

1. Did you ever find out what the descriptor was that a surfer will see when a charge is made to his card via solar billing?

2. How will you allow clients to transfer money to Paypal or Epassporte accounts since there is no transfer between Paypal and Epassporte for fraud control and you dont issue a card like they both do?

3. Exactly how are you going to use Verfied by Visa to do rebills when the surfer is the only person to hold the passkey? Will you notify the consumer each time hes going to be rebilled so he can pass you the number?

4. Can you explain your fraud control a little bit better? Your going to suspend the webmaster account or surfer account if they issue a chargeback? I was confused.

5. No one is still clear on how your going to port rebills over from CCBill and Ibill accounts. You said that the webmaster would transfer control of those accounts over to you and you would work some kind of port? What about my buddies at Jettis? Are you working with them too?

Im sure a few more folks from the show have questions but these are the ones that Ive gotten inquiries about so if any of the rest of you have specific questions for Bob from Solar Billing please post them here. Ive asked Bob to come and do a post show clarification.

1. Did you ever find out what the descriptor was that a surfer will see when a charge is made to his card via solar billing?

ANSWER: It says Solar Billing Internet - that was a brain fart on my part forgetting it!

2. How will you allow clients to transfer money to Paypal or Epassporte accounts since there is no transfer between Paypal and Epassporte for fraud control and you dont issue a card like they both do?

ANSWER: We have our own internal fraud control that is designed to eliminate the money laundering possibilities, etc. Once the funds have passed our controls, then we are OK to release them to other systems such as PayPal, a user's bank account, etc. If a person funds their account using a credit card, funds can only go back into that card, so a person can't steal a card, fund an account, and then withdraw it into another card, bank account, etc. That really affects the users more than webmasters, however. Webmasters can withdraw funds to whatever system they choose, or by whatever method they choose. We do plan on issuing a card hopefully within 6-9 months whereby you can withdraw funds from an ATM machine and not even have to worry about those other systems. If I did not understand that question properly, please ask further on it.

3. Exactly how are you going to use Verfied by Visa to do rebills when the surfer is the only person to hold the passkey? Will you notify the consumer each time hes going to be rebilled so he can pass you the number?

ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insuffucient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account.

4. Can you explain your fraud control a little bit better? Your going to suspend the webmaster account or surfer account if they issue a chargeback? I was confused.

ANSWER: We have a whole dispute process in place, and if you like, I can outline the whole thing. It's long, but we did it that way by working with the bank as part of our negotiations. First off, it is next to impossible for a user to sustain a chargeback due not only to the VbV system, but also because of the way the system is set up. A user is not using his credit card to join a site. He is using it ofund his account. If he is unhappy with the site, that is not an issue with Solar Billing, that is an issue between the user and the webmaster outside of our system. That being said, we do have a resolution process to assist in that dispute should it occur. IF a user wants to chargeback, the only thing he can say is that his account wasn't funded, which is what he is paying for. Of course, his account would have been funded, so he would have gotten exactly what he paid for. If there is an error on our side, like transferring the funds to the wrong account, that would not be the fault of the webmaster nor the user.

What we do is suspend the user's account until we figure out the fault, if any. What makes is complicated is that a user could fund his account for $100, say, and that $100 is split up amongst 5 webmasters, for example. If he wanted to chargeback the whole $100, there would be 5 other accounts involved. For that reason, we suspend the user's account only, until and unless we discover through our procedures that there is any reason to anything beyond that. Obviously, if that guy is suspended, his rebills would also have to be suspended pending the outcome, but that is all accounted for by the system.

We do not look at these things the same way that the credit card companies look at them, where the cardholder is always presumed to be right. We look at it objectively to determine what actually happened before passing judgment, which is the opposite of how they do it.

5. No one is still clear on how your going to port rebills over from CCBill and Ibill accounts. You said that the webmaster would transfer control of those accounts over to you and you would work some kind of port? What about my buddies at Jettis? Are you working with them too?

ANSWER: To be quite frank, the recent IBill developments have shifted our methods a bit, since it appears that they will no longer do adult at all. When exactly that is going to occur, however, I do not know. Apparently soon, though. We DO have a method, however, to take care of that problem, without everyone just getting shut off one day, but I don't really want to discuss it here in detail, for business reasons. Basically, I don't want someone else stealing our idea.

As for CCBill, it is simply a matter of reassignment, where we would take care of the fees that webmasters don't want to pay. In return, the accounts would be consolidated and funneled through Solar Billing, so nobody would lose any current CCBill accounts. We have not done anything with Jettis at this point. I can get into more detail on this as well, if someone wants to speak privately with me, for the same reasons I am reluctant to post our whole market strategy concerning IBill up here.


We tried to bring some real world practicality into the system, rather than just look at it as some adult webmasters trying to run a billing system, since we are much more than that. Those systems, as you know, have all failed because of that. If the system only appeals to one side and not the other, it's no good for anyone. You can't sell anything if there are no customers, and you can't buy anything if there are no merchants. We tried to find a middle ground where both sides would be satisfied, while not blatantly favoring one side over the other. To do otherwise would just lead us down the same road to failure as the other systems, and end up screwing people over once again, and we would ALL be back where we started!

[Mike AI]

Excuse my ignorance, but who the hell is solar billing and what exactly do they do?

[Solar Billing]

Solar is our new billing system. Here's a link to an XBiz article on it -

http://xbiz.com/articles/index.php?article_idp=1111

This started when I posted on AmateurMasters board,

http://chat.amateurmasters.com/chat.php?ac...d&threadid=4157

and then Gonzo has us on Oprano Radio on Tuesday night.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Solar Billing@Feb 19 2004, 12:18 PM
Solar is our new billing system. Here's a link to an XBiz article on it -

http://xbiz.com/articles/index.php?article_idp=1111

This started when I posted on AmateurMasters board,

http://chat.amateurmasters.com/chat.php?ac...d&threadid=4157

and then Gonzo has us on Oprano Radio on Tuesday night.

Excellent, I will read into it.

This industry can use some more billing companies!

[Solar Billing]

Thanks! If you have any more questions, please feel free to give me a call!

[taboo_gal]

Are you saying that you have developed a method that will allow a user coming from ccbill to import their members and rebills into your system, or did I misinterpret?

[pennywize]

Hi Solar Billing

can you please get in contact with me - steve AT pennywize.com or I C Q 6 8 2 8 6 8

We have some products and services that will assist you in the launch of your service.

thanks

Steve

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Solar Billing@Feb 19 2004, 08:32 AM
2. How will you allow clients to transfer money to Paypal or Epassporte accounts since there is no transfer between Paypal and Epassporte for fraud control and you dont issue a card like they both do?

ANSWER: We have our own internal fraud control that is designed to eliminate the money laundering possibilities, etc. Once the funds have passed our controls, then we are OK to release them to other systems such as PayPal, a user's bank account, etc. If a person funds their account using a credit card, funds can only go back into that card, so a person can't steal a card, fund an account, and then withdraw it into another card, bank account, etc. That really affects the users more than webmasters, however. Webmasters can withdraw funds to whatever system they choose, or by whatever method they choose. We do plan on issuing a card hopefully within 6-9 months whereby you can withdraw funds from an ATM machine and not even have to worry about those other systems. If I did not understand that question properly, please ask further on it.

3. Exactly how are you going to use Verfied by Visa to do rebills when the surfer is the only person to hold the passkey? Will you notify the consumer each time hes going to be rebilled so he can pass you the number?

ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insuffucient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account.

5. No one is still clear on how your going to port rebills over from CCBill and Ibill accounts. You said that the webmaster would transfer control of those accounts over to you and you would work some kind of port? What about my buddies at Jettis? Are you working with them too?

ANSWER: To be quite frank, the recent IBill developments have shifted our methods a bit, since it appears that they will no longer do adult at all. When exactly that is going to occur, however, I do not know. Apparently soon, though. We DO have a method, however, to take care of that problem, without everyone just getting shut off one day, but I don't really want to discuss it here in detail, for business reasons. Basically, I don't want someone else stealing our idea.

As for CCBill, it is simply a matter of reassignment, where we would take care of the fees that webmasters don't want to pay. In return, the accounts would be consolidated and funneled through Solar Billing, so nobody would lose any current CCBill accounts. We have not done anything with Jettis at this point. I can get into more detail on this as well, if someone wants to speak privately with me, for the same reasons I am reluctant to post our whole market strategy concerning IBill up here.


We tried to bring some real world practicality into the system, rather than just look at it as some adult webmasters trying to run a billing system, since we are much more than that. Those systems, as you know, have all failed because of that. If the system only appeals to one side and not the other, it's no good for anyone. You can't sell anything if there are no customers, and you can't buy anything if there are no merchants. We tried to find a middle ground where both sides would be satisfied, while not blatantly favoring one side over the other. To do otherwise would just lead us down the same road to failure as the other systems, and end up screwing people over once again, and we would ALL be back where we started!

Not to get involved here but a few things are particularly glaring and I would like some further explanation of the answers, please.

Right now, you have no card product, correct?
-----------------------------------------------------------

Next, on to the Paypal/ePassporte scenarios you are describing. First I dont think you have a grasp of how funding for either of the two works. Paypal is funded from a bank account, or in some merchant cases, the use of someone's credit card in order to make a purchase. ePassporte is funded either via wire for the commercial accounts, or through a credit card for personal accounts. Your system will work with neither, without even bringing up the fraud control issues that are very real, one of the reasons why neither ePassporte nor Paypal accepts cross transactions from the other, nor ever will most likely, under the current banking rules and card association regulations. The fact that they are competitors is irrelevant in this matter, I will point out.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Next, can you please explain this again?
"ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insuffucient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account. "

What you appear to be saying is surely not what you are saying -- which I read to mean that if a surfers card gets a soft decline, you will initiate an ACH from his bank account to reload his Solar Billing account. Perhaps American Express can get away with something like this, but then again they are Amex and not Solar Billing and they control their own cardholder base exclusively. I am referring to their ExpressPay product for anyone who just got lost in that reference.
---------------------------------------------------------

And of course, last but not least, your continued reference to importing databases from IBill and CCBill. Perhaps with all your previous billing experience you have come to realize that IBill and CCBill are the owners of record of those consumer databases, and that site owners do not simply instruct them to move the rebills over to someone else. A few of the larger companies out there have agreements with their processors saying that IF their processor cannot run their transactions for some reason, they will be given access to their database to move it to another legitimate IPSP,
provided the merchant banks who handle the IPSP business agree -- that is the only instance of which I am aware that someone using an IPSP model is allowed to move their database under the current Visa/MC regulations. I would also like to see the statement that IBill made that gives you cause to say they will not be in adult processing any more please. Perhaps you are confusing Intercept and IBill, but surely not, since you must know who's on first and what's going on in the outfield and the locker room?

I'm sure I will have a few more questions based on your replies and after reading your post again, but I just want to be very sure I understand your claims to the adult community, since in my job as a consultant I advise my clients on billing solutions on a nearly daily basis.

Thanks

[cj]

While I understand your reluctance to share with us your 'methods' of porting rebills, you need to understand the reluctance of webmasters to use your service when you can't explain to us how it works - and I personally don't believe its possible - therefore its up to you to get me to believe this works if you want me as a customer. This is the fine line you have to play between marketing and development ... we all understand how difficult that is ;-)

You explained on air something about taking control of the ibill account on the behalf of your clients - but i'm still confused about how that will help get rebills OUT of that processor. Based on your explanation, my first thought is that you want the account in your name so you can steal my rebills - I can't see what the advantage is going to be for me ...

My other concern is your carefree attitude about chargebacks ... being that you are holding a merchant account at deutchbank (i think?) which you then give your clients a 'sub account' off that merchant account - you seem to have absolutely NO intrastructure in place to handle this very important chargeback issue. Your explanation that there can't be a chargeback due to the way the service is purchased is naive ... Having had conversations with reps from deutchbank very recently it appears to me that we both have very different information on what is allowed and not allowed through their bank.

What type of volume have you put through this system up until now? I want to know how many tens of thousands of transactions you have processed without a chargeback - not a guess of what you think will happen or should happen but an actual proven system with numbers to back it up.

Have you run multiple sub merchants off this merchant account which solar billing holds yet?

What type of clients are you going to accept into Solar Billing? Spammers? Beastiality sites? Who will you be processing along side my sites which also have the same billing descriptor?

Bob, we really appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions as I'm sure you can understand we have a LOT of concerns about new billing companies and having been burned before we all know to ask a LOT of questions ... Answering people's concerns, real ones not pretty ones for marketing purposes, is what will bring you new clients.

[Solar Billing]

I will have a full reply tomorrow. Thanks for asking all the questions!

[Toolz]

This the same Bob I think it is? Last name plz:

Edit, nope guess not, Bob Jung from the article.




Last edited by Toolz at Feb 19 2004, 09:14 PM

[Opti]

Ten days prior to auto cancellation members are e-mailed a notice. If they reply their membership cancellation is postponed.

hmmmm.

[Danielle]

Question about recurring billing.

Does it happen automatically or does the member need to approve the rebill each time?

Hugs,
Danielle

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Opti@Feb 19 2004, 09:46 PM

hmmmm.

Hmmm, I'd have to say ha more like it. Both for the intent and the application.

[Toolz]

Shouldn't that be reversed?

10 days prior to auto-renewel they are emailed and if they don't cancel they are rebilled.

Either way, dumb idea and will only hurt retention.

[gonzo]

Bob SeZ he will be back with a pot full of answers later today and asks that I quit talking about his PO Box and home answering machine.

[Carrie]

I truly don't understand how Solar is saying that they can facilitate transferring rebills from other processors like CCBill or Ibill.
The role of a 3rd party processor is to hold the customer's CC information in their database - the webmaster does not see it. It's their responsibility to take care of and protect, and since *they* are the company that the customer made a business transaction with, *they* are the "owners" of that information.

They're not going to simply hand it over to another processor - not only is that a breach of trust between the customer and the original processor, I believe that it's illegal. (But could be wrong.)

A webmaster can leave CCBill and say "hey, can I have my customers' contact email addies so I can mail them and ask them to switch over to my new processor?", but he cannot ask "hey can I have my customers' CC info and give it to the new processor?".
Well, he could *ask* I suppose, but they'd laugh at him and tell him to go pound sand.

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 20 2004, 01:38 PM
I truly don't understand how Solar is saying that they can facilitate transferring rebills from other processors like CCBill or Ibill.
The role of a 3rd party processor is to hold the customer's CC information in their database - the webmaster does not see it. It's their responsibility to take care of and protect, and since *they* are the company that the customer made a business transaction with, *they* are the "owners" of that information.

They're not going to simply hand it over to another processor - not only is that a breach of trust between the customer and the original processor, I believe that it's illegal. (But could be wrong.)

A webmaster can leave CCBill and say "hey, can I have my customers' contact email addies so I can mail them and ask them to switch over to my new processor?", but he cannot ask "hey can I have my customers' CC info and give it to the new processor?".
Well, he could *ask* I suppose, but they'd laugh at him and tell him to go pound sand.

Bob swears he will be back today to answer all your questions 100%.

Please dont ask him about his PO Box or answering machine. I promised I wouldnt mention it again.

[taboo_gal]

Well....it's later....are answers forthcoming?

[Solar Billing]

Alright - it's 9:00 my time. I just got home from work, and I am going to start drafting my answers for all these questions. I will make every effort to get the answers in tonight. If they are not in tonight, they will be here first thing in the morning!!

I have to go get the mail from my PO Box and check my voicemail!

[Solar Billing]

Right now, you have no card product, correct? -

Correct, although we will have ATM withdrawal in the next 6-9 months, at least that is our plan
-----------------------------------------------------------

Next, on to the Paypal/ePassporte scenarios you are describing. First I dont think you have a grasp of how funding for either of the two works. Paypal is funded from a bank account, or in some merchant cases, the use of someone's credit card in order to make a purchase. ePassporte is funded either via wire for the commercial accounts, or through a credit card for personal accounts. Your system will work with neither, without even bringing up the fraud control issues that are very real, one of the reasons why neither ePassporte nor Paypal accepts cross transactions from the other, nor ever will most likely, under the current banking rules and card association regulations. The fact that they are competitors is irrelevant in this matter, I will point out. -

Incorrect. Our system works with PayPal right now, and we are adding ePassporte as well. Our system is funded through all of the methods you mentioned, wire transfer, credit card, bank account, and also 900#, checks, and perhaps Western Union if we decide to implement it, etc. As I said, we have internal fraud control procedures that we have worked on with the bank and Visa, which occur after an account is funded. Now granted, I suppose if a persons PayPal account is a complete fraud, and they then use that fraudulent account to fund their Solar Billing account, there may be an issue, however, there would now be multiple levels of protection – the methods put into place by PayPal, or whomever, coupled with ours
--------------------------------------------------------------

Next, can you please explain this again?
"ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insufficient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account. "

What you appear to be saying is surely not what you are saying -- which I read to mean that if a surfers card gets a soft decline, you will initiate an ACH from his bank account to reload his Solar Billing account. Perhaps American Express can get away with something like this, but then again they are Amex and not Solar Billing and they control their own cardholder base exclusively. I am referring to their ExpressPay product for anyone who just got lost in that reference. –

You interpreted that correctly, and again, we have the full blessing of the involved companies to do it.
---------------------------------------------------------

And of course, last but not least, your continued reference to importing databases from IBill and CCBill. Perhaps with all your previous billing experience you have come to realize that IBill and CCBill are the owners of record of those consumer databases, and that site owners do not simply instruct them to move the rebills over to someone else. A few of the larger companies out there have agreements with their processors saying that IF their processor cannot run their transactions for some reason, they will be given access to their database to move it to another legitimate IPSP, provided the merchant banks who handle the IPSP business agree -- that is the only instance of which I am aware that someone using an IPSP model is allowed to move their database under the current Visa/MC regulations. I would also like to see the statement that IBill made that gives you cause to say they will not be in adult processing any more please. Perhaps you are confusing Intercept and IBill, but surely not, since you must know who's on first and what's going on in the outfield and the locker room? -

I realize that the aforementioned companies are the owners of the databases you are referencing, and the complications that arise from that, and you are on the right track as to how we plan to do it. For the IBill issue, I do not have a statement directly from Ibill stating that they are getting out of the adult biz. My previous statement was that I had heard that to be the case – not from anyone directly at IBill, but from an individual involved in marketing of that particular industry. I did not mean to imply that his word is gospel on the topic, I was merely stating that were that to be the case, our strategy would be different than that of CCBill, for example, and that we have already devised a way to handle that situation if necessary.

While I understand your reluctance to share with us your 'methods' of porting rebills, you need to understand the reluctance of webmasters to use your service when you can't explain to us how it works - and I personally don't believe its possible - therefore its up to you to get me to believe this works if you want me as a customer. This is the fine line you have to play between marketing and development ... we all understand how difficult that is ;-)

You explained on air something about taking control of the IBill account on the behalf of your clients - but i'm still confused about how that will help get rebills OUT of that processor. Based on your explanation, my first thought is that you want the account in your name so you can steal my rebills - I can't see what the advantage is going to be for me -

The only way, as pointed out earlier, to get the rebills out of the processor is through an agreement to do so. However,, your second guess is sort of correct. For people that don’t want to, or can’t afford to, pay the extra fees, and don’t want to risk losing their rebills, we will handle them for them. Not in our name, but as a joint agreement, where we would in effect, hold the rebills in trust for the individual. We would pay the fees that they didn’t want to pay, thereby eliminating the risk of cancellation, and the trust account prevents anyone from “stealing” your rebills. Now as I said earlier, if the info I have regarding IBill is accurate, this trust agreement will not be necessary in that instance.

My other concern is your carefree attitude about chargebacks ... being that you are holding a merchant account at deutchbank (i think?) which you then give your clients a 'sub account' off that merchant account - you seem to have absolutely NO intrastructure in place to handle this very important chargeback issue. Your explanation that there can't be a chargeback due to the way the service is purchased is naive ... Having had conversations with reps from deutchbank very recently it appears to me that we both have very different information on what is allowed and not allowed through their bank. –

Your assumption as to how our system is set up is flawed. We are in no way allowing anyone to use our merchant account, other than us. There are absolutely no sub-accounts off of our account. That system is an aggregator system, which we are not. I posted on the other board that first they thought we were a bank. Then they thought we were an aggregator. Then they thought we were 3rd party. Finally, they realized that we are none of these, and that we are a new animal. On that other post I also said how one of the main people at the bank fought very hard to get us approved for one reason. So that once we were out there, he could offer the same services to all the copycats that will be coming after us! Perhaps you just didn’t get in touch with the right people over at the bank. ;-)

What type of volume have you put through this system up until now? I want to know how many tens of thousands of transactions you have processed without a chargeback - not a guess of what you think will happen or should happen but an actual proven system with numbers to back it up. –

Obviously we have not run tens of thousands of transactions through – we just launched!

Have you run multiple sub merchants off this merchant account which solar billing holds yet? –

Again, there are no sub-merchant accounts allowed, nor are they needed.

What type of clients are you going to accept into Solar Billing? Spammers? Beastiality sites? Who will you be processing along side my sites which also have the same billing descriptor? –

There will be no kiddies, animals, or spammers. We will look at them, and have the final say, not because we want to censor anyone, but because we will not process those sites that are universally considered illegal. As for spam, personally we just hate it.

[StacyCat]

So, you are an e-wallet company, like paypal? But instead of being an intermediary, they fund the e-wallet, and then the e-wallet pays the other person.

[Solar Billing]

Originally posted by StacyCat@Feb 21 2004, 10:59 PM
So, you are an e-wallet company, like paypal? But instead of being an intermediary, they fund the e-wallet, and then the e-wallet pays the other person.

Sort of, except we pay the other person's eWallet, not the other person directly. Then, the other person cna make withdrawals from their eWallet into their bank account, etc.

[Danielle]

Question about recurring billing.

Does it happen automatically or does the member need to approve the rebill each time?

Hugs,
Danielle

[Solar Billing]

It happens automatically. We took PayPal features and combined them with the 3rd party features to make a webmaster billing solution. That's why we're different then anything else out there. There is more on this board -

http://chat.amateurmasters.com/chat.php?ac...d&threadid=4157

[ztikmedia]

Who the hell are you?
Where the hell did you come from?
Where did this billing company come from? How many people do you employ?
How long have you been working on this project?
Can I see a pic of your office?
You just came home from work... do you mean mcdonalds? or do they not let you do pr work at the "solar billing" office?
What banks are you going through for your processing?

Thanks

[*KK*]

At this point I would have to conclude that Bob doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

If he'd like to provide a map to each, I might reconsider.

[LeeNoga]

Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 23 2004, 11:40 AM
At this point I would have to conclude that Bob doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

If he'd like to provide a map to each, I might reconsider.

Welp...

They should make for a great billing company then KK :-)))

They appear to meet all the criteria necessary to enter the market.

As soon as they know their asshole from the hole in the ground, the billing companies tend to go out of business.

[cj]

Lee, why don't you try them out for us and let us know how they go for you

[*KK*]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 23 2004, 03:52 PM
Lee, why don't you try them out for us and let us know how they go for you

Couldn't have made a better suggestion cj

[*KK*]

Originally posted by LeeNoga+Feb 23 2004, 11:53 AM-->