Did Daniel Ellsberg bring down Nixon?

[Evil Chris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

My real question is why isn't there a modern Daniel Ellsberg somewhere in the Dept of National Defense who could bring us "Pentagon Papers II"?

[PornoDoggy]

Pentagon Papers II would be some very boring and singularly unremarkable reading.

Pentagon Papers I provided more insight into the stupidity that drove the system the government uses to classify information than it did about any state secrets used in deciding to escalate or how to conduct the war in Vietnam. The "papers" were all Johnson-era documents, so you can rest assured that they would have been leaked by the Nixon Administration themselves if there had been anything of embarassing value in them.

Ellsberg was just one little fish in a great big school of targets. I personally suspect the Plumbers would have come into being even without the Pentagon Papers episode.

Ellsberg didn't bring down Nixon - Nixon brought down Nixon.

[Evil Chris]

Well, if not for the Pentagon Papers, the Vietnam war would have gone on... who knows how long?

It also incensed Nixon so much that Ellsberg's offices were broken into and it just went from there.

[PornoDoggy]

The release of the Pentagon Papers really didn't have much of an impact on the opinions of people toward the Vietnam War one way or another.

By the time the "Papers" were released, support for the war was continuing a decline that had started several years earlier. Opponents of the war pointed to them as evidence the whole thing was flawed from its beginning; proponents of the war ignored what was in them and pointed to the release of this "classified" information (almost all of which was available to the public anyway) as evidence that opponents of the war were traitors.

Nixon was Nixon long before he became aware of the name "Ellsberg." He'd already conducted illegal wiretaps against Kissinger's staff and others by the time the "Papers" were in the hands of the NY Times and Washington Post. His political operatives were conducting a vendetta against their enemies in a way unparalled in the nasty history of American politics, and were growing frustrated with the lack of cooperation on the part of some agencies within the government.

I think it's wrong to assume that the information contained in the Pentagon Papers had that much public impact on support (or lack of it) for the War. Nixon and The Plumbers would have found themselves eventually. Ellsberg was just one fish in a whole school.

[Evil Chris]

PD, I had been doing some reading over the weekend on this subject. I barely remembered the whole story about the Pentagon Papers, but what it did was make me wonder why there isn't the same public outcry against the war in Iraq.

Many of the same elements are present too. The president and his administration's lies to the American public about the war being the most prominent. So where are the big anti-war protests? Is it because people care less, or that they're just too self-absorbed in this present generation?

[PornoDoggy]

There are a lot of reasons you don't see the sorts of opposition to the war in Iraq that you did about Vietnam.

One of them - and frankly I think this is the biggest one - is that there is no draft. If the SUV driving soccer moms and pops thought Johnny or Janey could be snatched up and sent to Iraq, you'd see a lot more opposition.

Another is the body count - 2,000 dead is bad, but I think that's still less than we lost in '65 (the first year of open American combat participation in the war); it's definitely less than we lost in '66 and the following years.

Yet another is time. By the time the anti-war movement began attracting mainstream public support (early 1968 was the watershed), Americans had been openly in combat for 3 1/2 years.

We've accomplished at least part of the mission - Saddam is gone. As shaky as it is today, the current Iraqi government is more stable than any South Vietnamese government was during the entire war.

I just don't think you can compare the two conflicts in the way you are attempting to do so. I'm not convinced that reaction (or lack of it) to the war is evidence that this generation is any more self-absorbed than mine was.

[DrGuile]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

There are a lot of reasons you don't see the sorts of opposition to the war in Iraq that you did about Vietnam.

One of them - and frankly I think this is the biggest one - is that there is no draft. If the SUV driving soccer moms and pops thought Johnny or Janey could be snatched up and sent to Iraq, you'd see a lot more opposition.

Another is the body count - 2,000 dead is bad, but I think that's still less than we lost in '65 (the first year of open American combat participation in the war); it's definitely less than we lost in '66 and the following years.

Yet another is time. By the time the anti-war movement began attracting mainstream public support (early 1968 was the watershed), Americans had been openly in combat for 3 1/2 years.

We've accomplished at least part of the mission - Saddam is gone. As shaky as it is today, the current Iraqi government is more stable than any South Vietnamese government was during the entire war.

I just don't think you can compare the two conflicts in the way you are attempting to do so. I'm not convinced that reaction (or lack of it) to the war is evidence that this generation is any more self-absorbed than mine was.

It's almost scary how you are clear and concise...

[TheEnforcer]

PD can certainly make well written and thoughtful posts when it comes to stuff like this.

[Evil Chris]

I fully agree... thanks for that post PD.
I certainly don't claim to know it all, and you've answered a lot in that last reply.

[PornoDoggy]

Well, thank you for the kudos, but that's just my opinion. These two subjects - Vietnam and Watergate - in a sense "defined" my generation, and I've read as much as I could get my hands on about both topics.

[sarettah]

Damn PD... You do have all the youngsters snowed real good













(Time to start their indoctrination comrade)

[Evil Chris]

Originally Posted by sarettah

Damn PD... You do have all the youngsters snowed real good
(Time to start their indoctrination comrade)

Youngster.... I love to hear that.