If your considering copy and pasting your latest drive by spam here because you cant find any other place.
DONT!
Oprano has a ZERO tolerance policy for spam. Yours WILL be deleted. If you are looking for more exposure for your product please contact advertising@oprano.com for more information.
Legacy Archived Main BoardBusiness chat and general industry chat. All participation is welcome. Dont post your fucking spam here.
Just doing some research, and I stumble upon "free e-mail sites", which have the same plugin content as many paysites... ex. http://www.myfreepaysite.com/ which features all the plugins from:
Extreme Feeds
Interclimax
Its Your Porn
Webmaster Paradise
IBroadcast
Holio
Xamo
Camz
Sinful Media
Real Wild Content
Ten
Got Jizz
Homegrown
CyberSex Entertainment
Why do you allow "free e-mail sites" to have your content? I´m sure they are paying good money to you, but doesn´t it also degrade your product + piss off the movie studios/producers?
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Ofcourse cam providers think its a good idea due to the upsell ;-))) but most of the providers on the above list have deals with studios/producers to license the movies to 3rd party (ex. paysites).
Most studios/producers must think that their movies are going into sites, where people have to pay to watch the movies - but maybe I´m wrong, and they do not care (prehaps they get a % cut of the income from the bandwidth, so they do not mind people watching it for free?).
Another question is how paysites look at it... if all free sites start to have the plugin feeds, then why would paysites have them - they would need to find something else, which people are willing to pay for...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Rolo@Apr 5 2005, 10:07 AM Ofcourse cam providers think its a good idea due to the upsell ;-))) but most of the providers on the above list have deals with studios/producers to license the movies to 3rd party (ex. paysites).
Most studios/producers must think that their movies are going into sites, where people have to pay to watch the movies - but maybe I´m wrong, and they do not care (prehaps they get a % cut of the income from the bandwidth, so they do not mind people watching it for free?).
Another question is how paysites look at it... if all free sites start to have the plugin feeds, then why would paysites have them - they would need to find something else, which people are willing to pay for...
there is a big probability that these freesites with plugins are owned by paysites who pay a package to be able to do what they do.
I´m sure that those who have the sites make money on upsell, or they would not be there... so its not a question about the free site´s motives ;-)
What I´m trying to understand is why plugin providers allow it - beside the extra income on bandwidth, then I would think that studios would be somewhat disappointed to see that their movies are given away free (studios still have DVD, cable etc. sales to think about), and other paysites would probably be less likely to use that content in their members area, if its on free sites?
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
As for the studios providing the content for the feeds? On a rev-share, they'd be getting their share, so they aren't gonna care. A lot of them don't have an internet presence outside of the feeds themselves, so it's simply another revenue stream for them.
If the content is bought outright with any of the internet rights licenses I've seen, it would be entirely legal and the studios would have no say in the matter. Unless perhaps, they were giving the videos away for free, which I can assure you, they're not.
Does it devalue the product? Perhaps. Then again, members generally don't join paysites for the feeds. They're simply an addition to offer the surfer more content. Few surfers are gonna complain about seeing the same "Add on" content they've seen somewhere else. If the content is good, it's gonna help a little with retention, and the paysite owners aren't gonna complain about that.
dig - you need to update your terms and conditions:
Quote:
Customers must:
(a) Have a "subscription" Internet site, which requires a credit card
for age verification and a user name and password for consumers to become
subscribers and enter the site. Note: This requirement applies to all Products,
and publication, or display of the licensed productions, including any
FREE materials.
Originally posted by PlugInFeeds-Ron@Apr 5 2005, 01:47 PM Then again, members generally don't join paysites for the feeds.
really?
why does a surfer join a site then? photos? stories? pretty colors?
Rolo, I went through a period about 2 years ago where this really pissed me off ... paying an absolute fortune for really average feeds that are also being used by free sites. I stopped leasing feeds and haven't touched my adult paysites since.
The feed companies realized about then that they could make as much money off free sites/registration sites, so why restrict themselves? makes it hard for those running paysites to find reasonably priced content that hasn't been reused over and over.
The paysite business model these days is worse than trying to climb everest with no equipment. The day when a TGP had more content than a paysite was the day I stopped bothering.
If you own paysites AND portals (tgp, link lists etc), then the formula works ...
Business is business, however since the free mentality took over some years ago, then all adult products have been degrading - I guess we are now at another crossroad where full length dvds will be as "valuable" as picture content - who wants to pay for them, when you can access them for free
First we gave away nothing, and sold access to pictures
Then we gave away tons of pictures, and sold access to movies
Now we give away full length movies, and sell access to live cams
Could the next evolution step be to give away endless live cams, and sell real hookers?? ;-)))
Again, I´m not bitching - just wondering ;-)
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Rolo@Apr 6 2005, 07:33 AM Ron, would you allow free e-mail sites to use your feeds?
That's not really my decision Rolo, however, if they paid the price, I'm sure we'd lease them our feeds.
I will say that Leo from myfreepaysite inquired about our prices and he wouldn't pay the $30,000 or so monthly it would have cost him to put our feeds on his site (based on what his usage would have been).
If he would have paid that, I'm POSITIVE they'd have taken it.
Is there someone here who would turn down $30,000 monthly?
Originally posted by PlugInFeeds-Ron@Apr 6 2005, 08:10 AM Is there someone here who would turn down $30,000 monthly?
Probably there is
You could say that you turned down whatever he was offering - dunno if that was $1 or $29,999 - but you obviously thought your feeds were more valuable than what he would pay... so saying no to money happens ;-)))
Now the really interesting thing about how things have been moving in adult is that sometime in the future, you will probably accept much less for your feeds, than you do today. And at that time his offer might be very attractive - now ofcourse his overall income per surfer would probably be less than today, so if he has not made up the difference in extra volume, then the question will be if he can/will give you the same offer...
Its the irony of the adult business - we keep competing on the easiest parameter in business - price (whatever if it is membership price or payout to affiliates), and we end up with having to do more volume to make the same money... the irony kicks in, when we realise that the price is actual less important in adult than other parameters, which most use little time to explore (just think how the few adult programs who have made millions in the last years were different, than the many who lost marketshare, and you will see some of the missing parameters ;-))
So we keep degrading adult products and hope to make it up in volume, but at some point the growth will stop, because endless growth in any business do not exsist
No one can be blamed for this - its just a product of our "free mentality" ;-))
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
imho these days you can only make real money by presenting sites very strongly oriented toward particular niches, hence darkcavern.com - cheating wives with black guys, which does VERY well. You can catch the odd surfer with general type sites if you run enough traffic across the site, but the new and future hotness is microniches and custom content.
The feeds are a nice bonus and if they're good they can be a pleasant surprise for the surfer but they're mostly looking for you to fulfill the promises you made on the tour re the specific content they were looking for.
The good thing about extremefeeds is that the feeds themselves are nichy enough to make a microniche paysite around i.e. cumshots to the eye etc. Fetishbucks.com will be coming out with a new batch of paysites very soon illustrating this point very specifically.
Our content is owned by us and we sit on a library of exclusive material 20 years in the making so we are in a completely unique position. Our paysite content clients get more content than our freesite customers. Only our flagship site (www.homegrownvideo.com) has ALL of what we offer... so we do keep in mind the needs of paysites vs freesites as well as keeping our own paysite unique and worth the price, imo.
Biz is biz and we are all about keeping all our customers happy.
Far-L, that sounds like the best way to attack it from the content providers perspective ....
that way you don't piss off or lose either client base ...
i don't think a feed provider should sell the same stuff for both free and paysites, but if a free site can pay the bandwidth you can't be expected to turn them down ...
do you have the same bandwidth usage system for free sites as for paysites? how do you bill them, ie what format? paysite is 1-300 members style system + bandwidth fee, so how does free site feed billing work?
Originally posted by cj@Apr 7 2005, 05:07 PM so how does free site feed billing work?
Its per GB, and with bandwidth prices today + the volume free sites can bring, then I´m sure free sites are not paying much per GB... If free sites were paying anything close to what small paysites are paying per GB, then I do not think the free sites could stay profitable...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by cj@Apr 7 2005, 05:07 PM Far-L, that sounds like the best way to attack it from the content providers perspective ....
that way you don't piss off or lose either client base ...
i don't think a feed provider should sell the same stuff for both free and paysites, but if a free site can pay the bandwidth you can't be expected to turn them down ...
do you have the same bandwidth usage system for free sites as for paysites? how do you bill them, ie what format? paysite is 1-300 members style system + bandwidth fee, so how does free site feed billing work?
Thank you CJ; we are certainly concerned about keeping the customers happy and that was the only way we could come up with.
Paysite owners don't like paying on a bandwidth based price plan but in truth if they look closely then they would realize our bw plan is way cheaper in the long run... and especially if they are or could be a high volume site. Many still just buy into the way it was back when bw was really expensive and security was not tight... back then... if a paysite got hacked (or was secretly dumping passwords to generate traffic) the paysite owner would freak when all of a sudden they would be hit with a huge bill for content. So still to this day, providers and paysites play a tug of war based on number of users.
The freesite folks like Leo understand high volume and bw much better so he is primarily concerned with his price based on bw.
I liken the pros and cons of this argument to the analogy of free tv vs. pay cable television. Ultimately, people watch both. Of course, money is made with both business models. And to finally answer your question, we use windows media for all our feeds and do have bw monitoring available to all our clients.
Originally posted by PlugInFeeds-Ron@Apr 5 2005, 12:47 PM You answered your own question.
The almighty dollar. That's it. No more, no less.
Are you content providers mental?
Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg...
Yes - make the money now - but you are destroying your future.
Porn was NEVER free - EVER - until competition got so hot on the web that some webmasters felt they *had* to give it all away to get the hits. Of course they got the hits - but they were damn near worthless.
I say again - porn should NEVER be free - people will ALWAYS pay for it if there's none free about. Human nature!
>> People don't "pay" to watch ABC, NBC, or CBS either... but all those content
>> providers are making billions.
>> So called "free" porn has been making money for years.
We're talking porn here - you CAN'T bring in general content such as major TV networks.
And yes, So-Called-Free is the perfect way to describe what DOES work in porn. Teasers using psychology - the surfer *thinks* they have seen some good free stuff but *still* want more so sign up.
Go surf http://xnxx.com for example - there's TGP gone wild! A porn surfer's paradise - never a need to join a paysite when you find that site. Same for the fee paysites. They all need to disappear - and I think they will when a better way to sell porn comes along.
Originally posted by Robin@Apr 9 2005, 05:36 AM >> People don't "pay" to watch ABC, NBC, or CBS either... but all those content
>> providers are making billions.
>> So called "free" porn has been making money for years.
We're talking porn here - you CAN'T bring in general content such as major TV networks.
And yes, So-Called-Free is the perfect way to describe what DOES work in porn. Teasers using psychology - the surfer *thinks* they have seen some good free stuff but *still* want more so sign up.
Go surf http://xnxx.com for example - there's TGP gone wild! A porn surfer's paradise - never a need to join a paysite when you find that site. Same for the fee paysites. They all need to disappear - and I think they will when a better way to sell porn comes along.
I respectfully disagree.
Content is content. People will always pay to be entertained even though there are plenty of ways to entertain themselves for free. Does not matter whether it is a kid's show like "Barney" or the most intensely graphic hardcore adult xxx video. Content is contentment and people pay for that the world over.
Content providers do make money catering to "freesites" so from that perspective there is nothing free about them. "Freesites" do make money on upsells so from that perspective there is nothing free about them either.
I think the notion that "free content is the end of porn" would have been proven long ago but contrary to that the industry continues to swell. People will always pay if they believe by doing so they will get "more", "better", "privilege", "attention", "customization", "unique", etc.
>> I think the notion that "free content is the end of porn" would have been
>> proven long ago but contrary to that the industry continues to swell.
Yeah it may continue to swell - but conversions are through the floor, the signups you could make a day in 1998 take a week or a month now on the same amount of traffic. When I started I was getting signups at about 1 in 150 - Now it seems 1 in 3000 is more the par...
The amount of adult webmasters is exponentially larger - but most are hardly making much money at all - this is not an industry where suppliers have grown with revenue - there are more porn suppliers chasing less revenue.
Adult is declining and almost everyone will tell you this - it's been declining for 5 years because (I believe) of lack of innovation - so most webmasters have gone for the easiest thing they know - give more and more free stuff away to get traffic - only trouble is the traffic converts less and less - a vicious downwards spiral.
>> People will always pay to be entertained even though there are plenty of ways
>> to entertain themselves for free
No they won't - they'll ALWAYS choose the free option - look at Kazaa for example. You are just saying something that sounds good but has no basis - people ONLY EVER pay for something that they cannot get for free. We are not (mostly) *that* dumb...
The free content on the web right now is so thoroughly diluting the money that can be made that it's ridiculous. The savvy surfer today KNOWS *exactly* where to get any porn they want for free - anything at all. The only people signing up these days are those that can't find the free stuff and newbies - it's as simple as that - soon as they find the free stuff then they never sign up again.
Originally posted by Robin@Apr 9 2005, 01:00 PM >> I think the notion that "free content is the end of porn" would have been
>> proven long ago but contrary to that the industry continues to swell.
Yeah it may continue to swell - but conversions are through the floor, the signups you could make a day in 1998 take a week or a month now on the same amount of traffic. When I started I was getting signups at about 1 in 150 - Now it seems 1 in 3000 is more the par...
The amount of adult webmasters is exponentially larger - but most are hardly making much money at all - this is not an industry where suppliers have grown with revenue - there are more porn suppliers chasing less revenue.
Adult is declining and almost everyone will tell you this - it's been declining for 5 years because (I believe) of lack of innovation - so most webmasters have gone for the easiest thing they know - give more and more free stuff away to get traffic - only trouble is the traffic converts less and less - a vicious downwards spiral.
>> People will always pay to be entertained even though there are plenty of ways
>> to entertain themselves for free
No they won't - they'll ALWAYS choose the free option - look at Kazaa for example. You are just saying something that sounds good but has no basis - people ONLY EVER pay for something that they cannot get for free. We are not (mostly) *that* dumb...
The free content on the web right now is so thoroughly diluting the money that can be made that it's ridiculous. The savvy surfer today KNOWS *exactly* where to get any porn they want for free - anything at all. The only people signing up these days are those that can't find the free stuff and newbies - it's as simple as that - soon as they find the free stuff then they never sign up again.
Our conversions are doing just fine. Our retention is excellent and we are a relatively high priced site. Admittedly, we have a strong brand but the fact that people can see us for pennies on cable compared to our site has not hurt sales only helped.
We all agree that there is a glut of content. There is also a glut of marketers. A glut of programs. The successful programs of yesterday may or may not be the kings and queens of the market today. It is natural for only a small percentage at the top to make the majority of profits in any free market.
Porn as a form of entertainment has barely changed since the mosaics in Pompeii. The way to sell it is constantly innovated according to the means to display and disseminate it.
You say the market is shrinking but what about all the analytics that say mobile porn will be a multi billion dollar market within a year or two?
People don't ALWAYS pick the FREE option. I heard that same argument at the birth of cable tv... why would people pay for what they can get for free? Simple. If you make something exclusive and offer any other sort of incentive then people will pay a price.
For example... you can go to the movies to see a big screen picture.. you can wait for it to come to cable... wait longer for the dvd... or wait longer to see the edited version on free tv. The same basic rules apply for the way we market Homegrown. You have to be a member of the site to see the whole enchilada.
>> Our conversions are doing just fine. Our retention is excellent
>> and we are a relatively high priced site. Admittedly, we have
>> a strong brand but the fact that people can see us for pennies
>> on cable compared to our site has not hurt sales only helped.
I'm curious. Would you care to reveal the convertion ratios you are talking about? What do you mean by "just fine"? 1-100? 1-500? 1-1000? or what? And where is the traffic mainly from?
I'm pleased to hear that your retention is excellent - you are looking after your customers.
Seeing your content on cable is OK - but... it's TV - you can't wack your wanger out so easily in the living room ; ) - that's why you get the web sales - people feel safer at their computers - in their home offices etc... ; )
>> We all agree that there is a glut of content.
Yes
>> There is also a glut of marketers.
Yes
>> A glut of programs.
Yes - but a dearth of good ones...
>> The successful programs of yesterday may or may not be
>> the kings and queens of the market today.
You can't rest on your laurels - especially on the web...
>> It is natural for only a small percentage at the top to make the
>> majority of profits in any free market.
Agreed - there's always the pyramid.
>> You can go to the movies to see a big screen picture..
>> you can wait for it to come to cable...
>> wait longer for the dvd...
>> or wait longer to see the edited version on free tv.
>> The same basic rules apply for the way we market Homegrown.
>> You have to be a member of the site to see the whole enchilada.
Yes - also agreed - except that porn surfers want satisfaction NOW. An urge must be fulfilled - that's the male condition. So surfers won't wait for the free/cheap stuff - you are right. But... they will find whatever they can NOW that is the cheapest or free. The dick rules what the head desires - but the mind looks after the bucks - it never gets so tied up in the porn that it forgets basic economics...
If your horny surfer can get what he needs free then he will - if it's not free - he still has an urge to fulfill and will pay.
The sexual urge overides most stuff - it's part of nature - hide or remove the free stuff - but keep the surfer aware of where the paid porn is - you will always make more money - men need visual stimulation - they get bored just imagining - after a while of no free porn they will pay.
First thing everyone has to realize is newbie surfers are a very limited and shrinking commodity now. I'm talking about the guy who is new to the web and will buy the first thing that catches his eye, spank his monkey and then forget to cancel. These were plentiful in the late 90's, and as much as we all loved those days, they're gone.
You've gotta do some marketing now to separate a surfer from his wallet.
The real key here that everyone needs to realize is that in order to get people to spend money, you've got to have something to sell them that they cant get for free. This is why most of the successful sites these days are those pushing exclusive content they've produced themselves.
Giving a taste of it away for free is just one of many ways to market it and let the surfer know where they can get the motherload. Know your niche. Know your surfer. Use psychology to draw him in and open his wallet.
If you have content, then you can do whatever you wish to do - that is business :-)
It could be interesting, if plugin providers started to sell their content strictly on a flate rate per GB basis (no minimum, no sliding scale, no discount for high volume) - ex. $0.20-0.40/GB (which is probably close to what free site are paying per GB content).
Every paysite and many free e-mail sites on this planet (big and small) would then have all the feeds on the market, since there will be no minimum charge.
Would that scenario change the way people find "free content" - taking traffic from tgps to membership sites? (whatever they be pay or free - who wants to look at 10 sec clips, when you get full length for free or close to nothing?)
Would it make it even harder to sell adult subscription, dvds etc., because every site would feature so much content?
Would the majority of surfers have time to care about exclusive content, when there are so much to choose from at their fingertips?
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
Originally posted by Robin@Apr 9 2005, 07:56 PM >> Our conversions are doing just fine. Our retention is excellent
>> and we are a relatively high priced site. Admittedly, we have
>> a strong brand but the fact that people can see us for pennies
>> on cable compared to our site has not hurt sales only helped.
I'm curious. Would you care to reveal the convertion ratios you are talking about? What do you mean by "just fine"? 1-100? 1-500? 1-1000? or what? And where is the traffic mainly from?
I'm pleased to hear that your retention is excellent - you are looking after your customers.
Seeing your content on cable is OK - but... it's TV - you can't wack your wanger out so easily in the living room ; ) - that's why you get the web sales - people feel safer at their computers - in their home offices etc... ; )
>> We all agree that there is a glut of content.
Yes
>> There is also a glut of marketers.
Yes
>> A glut of programs.
Yes - but a dearth of good ones...
>> The successful programs of yesterday may or may not be
>> the kings and queens of the market today.
You can't rest on your laurels - especially on the web...
>> It is natural for only a small percentage at the top to make the
>> majority of profits in any free market.
Agreed - there's always the pyramid.
>> You can go to the movies to see a big screen picture..
>> you can wait for it to come to cable...
>> wait longer for the dvd...
>> or wait longer to see the edited version on free tv.
>> The same basic rules apply for the way we market Homegrown.
>> You have to be a member of the site to see the whole enchilada.
Yes - also agreed - except that porn surfers want satisfaction NOW. An urge must be fulfilled - that's the male condition. So surfers won't wait for the free/cheap stuff - you are right. But... they will find whatever they can NOW that is the cheapest or free. The dick rules what the head desires - but the mind looks after the bucks - it never gets so tied up in the porn that it forgets basic economics...
If your horny surfer can get what he needs free then he will - if it's not free - he still has an urge to fulfill and will pay.
The sexual urge overides most stuff - it's part of nature - hide or remove the free stuff - but keep the surfer aware of where the paid porn is - you will always make more money - men need visual stimulation - they get bored just imagining - after a while of no free porn they will pay.
I don't mind giving you some numbers. If anyone wants to challenge me as pulling the typical marketer hype then I will be happy to show them. I go to plenty of trade events and am easy to find.
Overall we are at a little less than 1:300 on full signups plus trials. We convert about 40% of trials to full memberships. 12% will stay on over a year. We don't get a lot of tgp traffic. Our ratios look so good because of our own type-in traffic generated from our ads on cable and our dvds, etc. Review sites also do particularly well for us typically converting better than 1:50.
We don't have many affiliates compared to other programs. We do not have huge amounts of traffic. However, when we were with CE the only thing that coverted better was a free password program and we were the best retaining site according to MikeB, Fabian, and others.
Here is a recent customer post that illustrates my point more clearly than I could possibly express:
"To the management and staff of homegrownvideo.com:
I have been a member of homegrownvideo of and on for a couple of years now, and it has continually got better. All the latet streaming technology is used, you try to cater for all your customers. The content which you provide , is both diverse and consistently of a high level of quality.
As for not being able to download the movies, why would you want 1,000 movies at 300MB on your hard drive anyway, once you've seen them a couple of times.
I think some people may forget how much it must cost to maintain the streaming servers , aswell as all the other overheads when running a business.
I also like the fact you provide ample places for members to provide feedback, and also I like the cancel membership option in the members area. I'm in Australia, so when I join a site in the us via ccard, my only correspondence option is via email. And ever since I've joined this site I've never had a single billing issue. at any time with this site.
People are right there are alot of other amateur sites on the net, however, in the quality versus cost ratio I feel I'm doing very well for my money. You've have obvisiously got some pretty good business models in place, as you provide a superior product at a economically feasable price.
Everything it states on the tour pages, actually appears in the members section, which puts you ahead of alot of your other competitors instantly.
Ok enough compliments, I'm sure people will be able too ascertain my happiness with my subscription to homegrownvideo.
regards,
satisfied customer
Andrew"
Even I, having been in the biz for years, been there, done that, it is in our library, have purchased memberships for sites I have seen on tgps and mgps. Customers will always be willing to pay, imo, if there is an incentive to do so. Keep in mind that many people also start to avoid a lot of free stuff out there because of all the dirty tricks programs do with spyware.
04-05-2005
earl:
Linear Mode
