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Originally posted by Tonda_WEGCash@Jan 13 2004, 07:42 PM What if you were a regular advertiser of a board that took on additional advertisements such as skinning?
Do you think you should have to pay the same rate as before?
Do you think your advertisement is getting the same recognition it does without these skins?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Tonda,
I think it's survaval of the fittiest....
whoever has more money to advertise-
wins
;-)))
Tonda, I think it devalues your advertising dollars at that particular location ... nobody is looking at anything but the skinned site.
You would not only not be getting new business but probably losing existing business too ... either do the same thing and spend the same amount of money to keep going 1 up, or pull your advertising and find a board that goes out of their way to support all advertisers with money, not just the highest bidder on a particular day/week/month.
I think after the first time, the effectiveness is greatly decreased. I could be wrong, but at least the Silvercash design doesn't make me want to go blind.
All very good points. I did notice that there was not as much heat on GFY for the Silvercash skin as the ADS skin. One would have to think that less heat equals less effectiveness.
I definitely like the t-shirt idea. Jump on that Gonzo!
Another question to ponder...what if alot of the advertisers were to boycott boards that sold skinning? Would this hit any particular advertising board where it hurts (the pocketbook) or does the cost of the skinning far outway any advertising $$ you might lose?
Originally posted by Tonda_WEGCash@Jan 13 2004, 04:42 PM What if you were a regular advertiser of a board that took on additional advertisements such as skinning?
Do you think you should have to pay the same rate as before?
Do you think your advertisement is getting the same recognition it does without these skins?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Skinning is most likely for a week, not an entire month as in your regular banner spots....so value should not be decreased much, if at all. If your highly interested in the real value of a skinning project, try one and see first hand...ask Serge or Lens and I'm sure they help you out Get your checkbook ready Tonda!!!
Seeing the same old banners over and over and over and over again lose their effectiveness with me much more than a site being skinned for a couple days...
You pay for a certain spot on the site. If the "skinning" doesn't take you out of that spot then you have nothing to complain about. If they DO alter your spot because of it or temporarily take you out or something then you have every right to bitch.
Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Jan 14 2004, 01:30 PM You pay for a certain spot on the site. If the "skinning" doesn't take you out of that spot then you have nothing to complain about. If they DO alter your spot because of it or temporarily take you out or something then you have every right to bitch.
Can I ask you a question relative to your response?
What if you agree to a spot for X amount of $$ based upon several factors and those factors change? For example, you look at a board and decide to advertise based upon the rotation, where it is located on the page and the size of the advertisement relative to the other advertisements on the board. Then months or even years later the advertising scheme changes. Do you feel like your spot is still worth the same amount of $$?
I like skins.. It brings lots of attention to sponsors in a short period of time.
I don't know if it is a good way to spend ad dollars - if webmaster signups jump during those promotions, but I thing it is a great way to get a message out. Banners can be overlooked.. skins can not be overlooked.
I have an ad on GFY now. The click rate hasn't gotten better or worse since the skin was put on the site. Doesn't seem to effect my ad space.
When the ADS skin was up on several of the boards my click rate didn't get better or worse on any of those sites.
I would consider getting a skin on GFY and other boards if I had something I wanted to draw lots of attention to in a very short period of time.
Originally posted by Bishop@Jan 14 2004, 03:00 PM I like skins.. It brings lots of attention to sponsors in a short period of time.
I don't know if it is a good way to spend ad dollars - if webmaster signups jump during those promotions, but I thing it is a great way to get a message out. Banners can be overlooked.. skins can not be overlooked.
I have an ad on GFY now. The click rate hasn't gotten better or worse since the skin was put on the site. Doesn't seem to effect my ad space.
When the ADS skin was up on several of the boards my click rate didn't get better or worse on any of those sites.
I would consider getting a skin on GFY and other boards if I had something I wanted to draw lots of attention to in a very short period of time.
Thanks Bishop!
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Originally posted by Bishop@Jan 14 2004, 03:00 PM I like skins.. It brings lots of attention to sponsors in a short period of time.
I don't know if it is a good way to spend ad dollars - if webmaster signups jump during those promotions, but I thing it is a great way to get a message out. Banners can be overlooked.. skins can not be overlooked.
I have an ad on GFY now. The click rate hasn't gotten better or worse since the skin was put on the site. Doesn't seem to effect my ad space.
When the ADS skin was up on several of the boards my click rate didn't get better or worse on any of those sites.
I would consider getting a skin on GFY and other boards if I had something I wanted to draw lots of attention to in a very short period of time.
I love your input. This is the type of stuff I am interested in.
Bishop do you mind answering this...
Do you think that the second skin on GFY (for example) is less effective than the first?
Originally posted by Tonda_WEGCash@Jan 14 2004, 12:51 PM I am not interested in skinning...I am interested in people's thoughts on skinning.
Your thoughts are quite interesting as on one hand you allude to the fact that skinning has a real value. On the other hand, you say that in your opinion you do not think it takes away from monthly advertisers as a particular skinning lasts only a week (on average). Interesting that you think they can co-exist without decreasing the value. Do you base this solely on the amount of time a skin is up? Please elaborate
Very interesting...CJ what do you think about this?
personally, i think purchasing plain old ads on message boards is pretty useless these days - all it does is show that you have enough money to pay your bills each month as it has been for good year or more, but a stand alone button or banner is just not enough.
i loved the skinning ideas for that particular company who is doing the skinning. if you have something new to launch, i think buying a banner spot would get you 3 clicks, but skinning, pinned threads or anything different gets attention. For this reason i think its a great idea to get lots of attention for a short period of time.
the last 2 skins on gfy i have gone there to look and see, but more out of curiousity at what the programs are up to. when ars did it, they had something really new & amazing that folks cared about but silvercash doesn't seem to have done anything exciting much but made their site silver so i thought it was a stupid waste of money.
i would love if webmaster boards started offering superstitials, which in my opinion is the most effective form of advertising because its got all the elements of tv that we accept already ... ads that you cannot ignore, you can't continue what you are doing without stopping to see the ad. If every half an hour an ad flashed across the screen in front of us saying 'weg cash paying 15% bonus on valentines day' you couldn't ignore it. when the superstitial finishes, it flies up to the 'ad nest' at the top & draws your attention to all banners which may be good or bad for that particular advertiser.
then all advertisers are on the same level and it comes down to whoever makes the best ad ...
i just can't see how a banner can be worth anything if you are going to give some companies the opportunity to skin the entire board ...
Tonda you have partially assumed that because there's less bitching on GFY about the SC skinning then it might not be as effective. I disagree.
The SC colors and scheme are much smoother and easier on the eyes; matter of fact people have been starting threads about how much they like the new look better than the normal GFY look and especially compared to the ADS skin. Let's face it, the ADS colors were... well... bright
As far as advertising on a board and the layout changes, does that make your $$ 'wasted' - well, depends on the layout. It might change so that you're in an even better position and more prominent. You can't just count on the fact that because the layout changes, then your position gets worse.
I'm with CJ - I honestly don't put much faith in normal top-of-the-page banner advertisements anymore. I know personally I *never* look at them. As a surfer I've been conditioned to ignore them completely and as an adult webmaster who can't get to anything I need to without scrolling past an entire top fold of banners, it's just habit to start rolling that scroll button as soon as the page starts to load.
CJ your idea about the in-your-face and fly-away ads is fantastic - egads that would be annoying as fuck but effective as well. Think also of the Yahoo Groups messages - every 5 messages or so that you click on, you get hit with a random FPA and a "continue on to the message" link. Can't ignore those either.
At this point I'd rather pay $2k for a few sig buttons than $2k for a top-of-the-page banner spot. Folks scroll past banners, the sig buttons get the advertisement down in the content area where the eyes are.
And no, I don't think skinning makes normal advertising any less effective. When the skinning is done, the normal banners are still there (as they are during the skinning) and like I said, I think normal banners lost their effectiveness long ago anyway.
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Carrie, that's the point i was trying to think of - skinning doesn't make normal banners any less effective because they have sucked ass so badly for so long that it couldn't make it worse.
yes the overlay ads are annoying but they are still so new that i find myself getting excited and calling everyone in the office over when i see a new one. but that's just me ;-)))
this is nothing to do with webmasters but i'm going to go on a tangent ... sorry ;-)
we've done a lot of testing of different types of ads on sites & consoles, mostly with mainstream or adult cross over traffic. we've been working on a new version of Red Hot Greetings for ages - the site is purely for emails & advertising campaigns & site content, so it wasn't really designed to get a lot of traffic ...
BUT ... end of November we put up a really basic overlay ad (http://www.redhotgreetings.com) to advertise the launch of the beta version - it only stays there for a few seconds so you don't get long to click on it ... in less than 2 months there's 100 registered users for the new section, on a site that gets less than 1000 uniques per day to the front page.
another ad we did which had amazing results (on our women's traffic) was for todd's naughty glass site ... the click through rate was something like 20-25% on this console, but conversions to sales were practically nothing because the ad looks way prettier & makes the toys look more valuable than the site - the sale is lost because of this imho.
webmasters are not much different to surfers - we are all people, its just the subject that changes and we are slightly more technically capable (and i say SLIGHTLY with all seriousness!) ...
this banner ad for purve sites has a consistent 15% click thru rate ... on this page with 2 other similar banners http://exit.purve.com/3featured.html
i like that webmaster advertising is finally getting more clever and skinning is just 1 step towards dynamic advertising overall ... it can only be good in the long run!
I understand why some feel that banner ads are not productive anymore. I don't look at the ads either. The question is not if they work.. they obviously do. The question is what grade of webmaster is being attracted by them. We all know the answer to that question. We tune the ads out.. we are not the target audience anymore. Sponsors wish it was that easy to attract the eye of THOSE webmasters.
Traffic sources..
In a perfect world traffic from outside sources would be unneccesary.
Next to perfect world business would only be done with a small group of principles.
Real world business must be done with the masses.. the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Its that last one that still motivates sponsors to buy the ad space. Only so much traffic can be generated inhouse and only so many principles to work with or are willing to work with you.. whats left? The masses.
CJ - I love that banner you posted! Hilarious.. Showed it to my wife. The fat guy creeped her out.. haha - I love it.
I see skinning as being almost like the online equivalent of buying naming rights to a stadium or sports arena.
I dont think it hurts existing ads unless you lose color contrast or something. But at the same time, if it is a competing vendor, by having the lions share of the visibility the skinned vendor will likely get the click first if someone is shopping that particular product. But that could happen simply by the competing vendor having a larger normal ad or more obnoxious flash banner as well.
The real key is the same as any other form of advertising, you've gotta be creative, funny and fresh to grab someone's attention. If you run the same campaign, same ads for 6 months, you're going to see ever diminishing returns.
There is also the problem of reader reaction to consider when you create new or different methods of getting attention, especially when you take away reader choice with that attention. I have a remote control that I can turn a commercial to another channel with immediately, but then I rarely watch tv stations with traditional commercials any more anyway... HBO and those type of networks get my eyeballs, not network TV.
For all those that will see a new ad that you cant turn off or pops on you every time you go to a particular board even if you've been there in the last three minutes or three seconds on a refresh, I think more of the target audience is annoyed and gets the "I wont look at that or use that because of the intrusiveness" mentality.
It's just too easy to click to another board to see whats going on rather than be annoyed; or better yet, click away from boards altogether when they don't serve ANY purpose including entertainment...
KK - agreed totally, but superstitials can be built with a tiny little x in the top corner so those who have seen it will eventually know how to close it straight away
we are conditioned to pick up the remote to change the channel and we are conditioned to clicking X on a console (or alt f4 repeatedly if its one of silvercash's consoles) ... but despite that these are annoying & we've figured out a way around them, both of these forms of advertising still work
the point is that the impact outweighs the hassle 10 fold ...
CJ.. when you mentioned superstitials I kept trying to remember where I had seen one on an adult resource.. I found it. http://adultchamber.com - the Goodthinxx ad.
Originally posted by Bishop@Jan 15 2004, 06:08 AM CJ.. when you mentioned superstitials I kept trying to remember where I had seen one on an adult resource.. I found it. http://adultchamber.com - the Goodthinxx ad.
that looks awesome!!
crappy designed banner but nice & simple usage of it ...
bets on who will do an oprano or gfy superstitial first?
Originally posted by cj@Jan 14 2004, 11:20 PM KK - agreed totally, but superstitials can be built with a tiny little x in the top corner so those who have seen it will eventually know how to close it straight away
we are conditioned to pick up the remote to change the channel and we are conditioned to clicking X on a console (or alt f4 repeatedly if its one of silvercash's consoles) ... but despite that these are annoying & we've figured out a way around them, both of these forms of advertising still work
the point is that the impact outweighs the hassle 10 fold ...
The board could also set a cookie so the ad is only repeated to a given viewer once per day, week, month, etc.
I'm also surprised skyscraper ads haven't caught on more with adult webmasters...
Originally posted by cj@Jan 14 2004, 11:20 PM we are conditioned to clicking X on a console (or alt f4 repeatedly if its one of silvercash's consoles)
awww cmon cj, we've got a better mousetrap. give credit where credit is due ;-)))
we've already done a superstial on gfy. it was extremely effective. i'd do one on oprano but it's a different culture and would just piss people off, plus i doubt s&m would allow it.
ironically, ours was the 2nd one ever on adult boards (lens's program was first) and when lens did it i was immediately hounding them and telling them i was going to pull my advertising for running their bullshit ontop of my ads.
seems the things we hate the most are always the best
Last edited by Hooper at Jan 15 2004, 07:42 PM
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The problem is there are too many people who have no sense of usability at all and over-do it. It seems to happen with every new trick that comes along.
Consoles were the first, a single exit console is very effective...even a couple or three of them can be effective if chained and filtered properly. But once you get past that, the users are ignoring what's in the window and instead are furiously trying to shut them all down and cussing. A pissed off user doesn't buy a damned thing.
Same thing with overlays. One that is removed easily or doesn't last long can be quite effective. However, there's always some ass who is going to have so much shit moving around on the page that you cant see anything underneath. Once again, surfer is pissed and frustrated and that credit card isn't going to be coming out of his wallet.
seems the things we hate the most are always the best
Quote:
The problem is there are too many people who have no sense of usability at all and over-do it. It seems to happen with every new trick that comes along.
There are ways to do things and then there are ways to do things.
Yes we all hate consoles. And the average paysite exit has at least three.
Again, we all hate consoles. But mainstream advertising has determined consoles are 14 -- yes, 14 times more effective than simple banners.
We all hate spam (except for Nick, of course, hehe). Yet enough people click and purchase, otherwise spam would have long ago stopped.
I remember that first overlay on GFY for playboy cash. Three problems with that thing - it was so fucking LARGE, there was NO way to close it the first day, and it didn't go away.
After all the screaming they finally put a little x to close it and made it fade off after a (too long) time.
The Goodthinxxx ad is done well in size and time. It appears, it gets the message across, it goes away.
Sykk I've got a shorter skyscraper on one of my portals that does okay. It's nothing compared to the size of the ones over at CNN - those things are freaking huge.
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i love skyscraper banners ... they are one of our most successful as far as click thru's go ...
plus affiliates put them on sites just because they make the page look 'complete' LOL
a skyscraper up the side of the oprano board (like the right hand side of the old flat board) would be very effective. more so than the chunk-o-banners at the top!!!!!
Originally posted by cj@Jan 16 2004, 08:12 AM i love skyscraper banners ... they are one of our most successful as far as click thru's go ...
plus affiliates put them on sites just because they make the page look 'complete' LOL
a skyscraper up the side of the oprano board (like the right hand side of the old flat board) would be very effective. more so than the chunk-o-banners at the top!!!!!
Skyscraper ads work very well, I use them on my biz opp sites (there's even a skyscraper banner exchange network) and the clickthroughs are much higher than my "regular sized" banners
As your average webmaster I can say for my self that the skin does not atract me particularly, it's more the reputation of the sponser that atracts.
Of course it is agood idea just for branding, bt for me and I think most webmasters that do this for a living I doubt that it is a determing factor.
Btw. why don't the big guys brake into the Japanese market?
Huge market, and they don't charge back, I know of a sponser that has never gone over 0.2%
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